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Author Topic: The other place  (Read 18397 times)
Jonathan
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« Reply #360 on: 18:12:41, 12-07-2007 »

They seem to have buried the hatchet on the other boards now.
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Best regards,
Jonathan
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"as the housefly of destiny collides with the windscreen of fate..."
perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #361 on: 18:36:01, 12-07-2007 »

Another insidious threat comes from the unelected, unaccountable bureaucracy in the EU. Again, 90% of their activities seem reasonable. But if you look deeper, and they start talking of making "anti-EU" activities a crime, then I think we should worry. The ghosts of Hitler and Stalin walk... I personally think that our freedoms have more to fear from the EU than from either of the minority extreme parties in the UK.
Could you give a source which will detail what 'anti-EU' activities are deemed to be in this context?

Yes, I'd be curious to know too.

I have a lot of professional contact with the European Commission and I'm always fascinated by the conspiracy theories about Europe.  Actually it's quite a small bureaucracy, and from what I have seen it can be maddeningly incompetent, and in the past has certainly been corrupt.  But the ghosts of Stalin and Hitler walking? .... hardly.  And it's worth remembering that when the EU takes perverse decisions it is because the Governments of member states - and the elected European Parliament - agree to them.  Some of the stupidest things about the EU - like the Parliament decamping to Strasbourg for one week in four - are about obscure points of national pride; it's the elected politicians who won't take the tough decisions.

I also know that the blogogracy and the rantings of the right-wing press (the latter usually uncritically repeating the former) are usually simply wrong.  Most of the accusations about what the Union is doing come from the remotest corners of fantasy land.  I'm not going to defend the EU and all its works, but the irrationality of the debate is fascinating.  I am really interested in the Anglo-Saxon fear of Europe; what are these people afraid of?
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At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
richard barrett
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« Reply #362 on: 18:43:24, 12-07-2007 »

ONIONS
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #363 on: 18:43:55, 12-07-2007 »

I'm not going to defend the EU and all its works, but the irrationality of the debate is fascinating.  I am really interested in the Anglo-Saxon fear of Europe; what are these people afraid of?
Ah, they are hatching secret plans to make us all eat these filthy garlic-ridden sausages instead of the good old Walls British banger (*shudders*), you know!

ONIONS
As in Mrs Thatcher removing one from her handbag?
« Last Edit: 18:45:43, 12-07-2007 by Ian Pace » Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #364 on: 18:49:32, 12-07-2007 »

I'm not going to defend the EU and all its works, but the irrationality of the debate is fascinating.  I am really interested in the Anglo-Saxon fear of Europe; what are these people afraid of?
Ah, they are hatching secret plans to make us all eat these filthy garlic-ridden sausages instead of the good old Walls British banger (*shudders*), you know!

ONIONS
As in Mrs Thatcher removing one from her handbag?

Ah yes, good old British food - the vicious attempt to rebrand British chocolate on the entirely spurious grounds that its principal constituent is not cocoa but emulsified pig fat ...

Remember the episode of Yes Minister in which Commission was allegedly trying to require the British sausage to be sold as the "emulsified high-fat offal tube"?
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At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
Milly Jones
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« Reply #365 on: 20:02:55, 12-07-2007 »

Someone told me that McDonald's McFlurries were made of pig fat hence the creamy taste and texture.  Apparently there was a bit of a "mcflurry" about it in America.  Oh how gross though!  Ugh!  Shocked
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #366 on: 20:09:29, 12-07-2007 »

Someone told me that McDonald's McFlurries were made of pig fat hence the creamy taste and texture.  Apparently there was a bit of a "mcflurry" about it in America.  Oh how gross though!  Ugh!  Shocked
If you ever know anyone whose ever worked in McDonald's, ask them what they do with the foodstuffs behind the scenes - that should definitely aid in resisting any temptation to buy anything from there....... Shocked
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Tony Watson
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« Reply #367 on: 20:13:57, 12-07-2007 »

Why did Walls go into the ice cream business in the first place? To use up the spare fat from their pies and sausages business.
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Milly Jones
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« Reply #368 on: 20:14:33, 12-07-2007 »

I don't know anyone in McDonalds but I used to know someone whose son worked in KFC years ago.  If they didn't like someone they used to kick the food round the floor before serving it up.   I've heard that it isn't unknown for people to spit into the froth of a capaccino as well if rattled by a customer.

I bet if we knew the half of it we'd never eat out again anywhere, ever!

People are horrible aren't they?  However by far the worst thing that I heard of was someone's aggrieved cleaning lady cleaning the lavatory with the employer's toothbrush.
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Bryn
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« Reply #369 on: 20:14:48, 12-07-2007 »

Someone told me that McDonald's McFlurries were made of pig fat hence the creamy taste and texture.  Apparently there was a bit of a "mcflurry" about it in America.  Oh how gross though!  Ugh!  Shocked

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonald's_urban_legends

However, whipped ice cream from other manufacturers does sometimes include pig fat, and why not, unless you are veggie, Jewish, and adherent of the Islamic faith, etc.,  ... ?
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Milly Jones
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« Reply #370 on: 20:16:06, 12-07-2007 »

Why did Walls go into the ice cream business in the first place? To use up the spare fat from their pies and sausages business.

Surely they can't still do that can they?  Isn't it illegal now?  Health and Safety (Cholesterol Section)..... Grin
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Bryn
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« Reply #371 on: 20:17:16, 12-07-2007 »

Would you rather they used palm oil, Millie? Wink
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Milly Jones
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« Reply #372 on: 20:19:15, 12-07-2007 »

Erm....well, speaking as a veggie, I've obviously been eating all sorts of stuff that I don't agree with for many years under various guises.  Good to see that hydrogenated fat is being dispensed with now.

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Tony Watson
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« Reply #373 on: 20:25:07, 12-07-2007 »

I don't know whether it's illegal now and maybe they don't do it any more, but that was the reason why we have Walls ice cream alongside their meat products.

It's interesting how this thread has developed over the last day or so. Anglo-Saxon fear of Europe? I suppose it comes from the way we feel that we are ruled by Europe, unlike other countries who see the EU as being there for whatever they can get out of it. Any laws they pass we obey to the letter, and maybe add some of our own, whereas other countries, notably France, choose which rules they are going to observe. A few years ago Ireland had a referendum to decide whether they should continue to receive large amounts of money each year from the EU. Surprisingly, they voted yes.

And the British Empire? It had good points as well as bad. The news items today on the anniversary of Paschendale were interesting. On the ITV news it seemed like they were promoting the standard view of "yes it was awful but we had to do it, and we can look back on it with pride at having done our duty", but then they did slip in the word "futile". Indeed!

Right, put back the soap box until the next time.  Tongue
« Last Edit: 20:26:44, 12-07-2007 by Tony Watson » Logged
ahinton
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« Reply #374 on: 21:47:14, 12-07-2007 »

Well I wouldn't agree, even with hindsight, that the Empire was all bad - but then, you wouldn't expect me to! For its time, it was probably as good an Empire as there could have been, given that an Empire existed at all.
It was extremely bad, it dispossessed and exploited brutally hundreds of millions of people, and was responsible for the most comprehensive genocide in the whole of human history (that in Tasmania). Supporting the British Empire is little better than supporting Nazi Germany.
I'm not, of course, going to say a single word in support of genocide or to defend the indefensible, wherever or by whomsoever's hand it took place, but by "the most comprehensive genocide" in Tasmania, are you referring to the percentage of the total Tasmanian population so killed (in which case you may well be correct - I simply do not know), because in terms of sheer numbers slain, it's pretty small fry compared to the work of the three largest culprits - Hitler, Stalin and (above all) Mao, surely?

In terms of percentage, it is the largest (almost 100% - one could hardly find anything mitigating in the fact that the numbers (I think around 100 000) were not larger simply on account of the fact that there were no people left). In terms of numbers, I believe the actions of King Leopold of Belgium in the Congo (possibly killing 10 million) make that the largest. Playing number games is of course crass - the point is that there were other genocides that were equally horrific but do not receive anything like the same attention as the Nazi Holocaust; I would suggest that when the victims are non-white, and not in Europe, somehow they aren't seen as of comparable importance. Genocide defined in terms of an intent to wipe out a whole people defined in terms of ethnicity, is not really an applicable term for the crimes of Stalin or Mao. A large percentage of the victims attributed to Mao (for which figures vary hugely, as is the case with Stalin's victims) died from massive famine at the time of the Great Leap Forward. This is directly attributed to Mao's policies, and rightly so; however, if you look at the death tolls in the contemporary third world, on a yearly basis, as a direct result of the policies of the World Bank and IMF, the figures are as bad if not worse (there are UN-sponsored reports and figures on this which I can track down if anyone wants). The mass murderous crimes of capitalism are on a par with those of communism.
OK - and thanks very much for this - a considerably more comprehensive answer than my little question perhaps might have expected and there is much for me to agree with here. Surely, however, the underlying issue is the motivation/s behind such acts of genocide, on whatever scale they may occur and by whomsoever's hand/s they may be carried out - and, in so saying, I do not seek to undermine a word that you have written about thishere. You are quite right to point out that this kind of thing knows no boundaries of right or left, rich or poor - and perhaps this is one of the most alarming aspects of the whole business. Your last sentence here is perhaps the one with which I equate the most - we are facing a matter of what could, if one is being charitable, be described as human flaws and frailties and their often appalling results, regardless of whether their dreadfully inhuman consequences arise in communist, or capitalist, or anywhere-in-between environments. Leaving aside your particular political viewpoints or my apparent lack of them, Ian - what do you see as the most practical solution to / way forward with / escape from this sickening international genocidal vortex? The "British Empire" of those bygone days when certain publishers issued world atlases with vast swathes of the world's land coloured pink is surely, in the greater historical retrospective scheme of things, no more responsible for these atrocities than any other régime that occasionally, frequently or exclusively indulged in human culls or one kind or another and, I suspect (at least in terms of total numbers of persecuted and murdered), rather less than some; this is not at all to defend either such atrocities or the "British Empire" but, despite my not having been baptised into the Christian or any other faith, I am minded to think of the old adage that isn't quite (but as easily could be) about letting he who is without compliance, directly or indirectly, in such human atrocity cast the first stone as long as it misses yet another potential human victim...

Best,

Alistair
« Last Edit: 22:59:29, 12-07-2007 by ahinton » Logged
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