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Author Topic: Sie & du  (Read 2493 times)
trained-pianist
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« Reply #105 on: 16:40:43, 22-08-2008 »

It is a repetition isn't it?

You count up to 10.  Starting with five and up  it is the ending -ov. Before that 2 and 3 and 4 are the same -a ending.

It is ov all the way to 20.
From 21 it is repetition (1, 2, 3, 4 etc) with the word twenty in front of it.
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increpatio
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« Reply #106 on: 17:11:53, 22-08-2008 »

You count up to 10.  Starting with five and up  it is the ending -ov. Before that 2 and 3 and 4 are the same -a ending.
Yeah (provided you're talking about male nouns anyway), but trying to figure out what the gender of the noun is and then to remember what the correct case is to use, and then to remember what the corresponding noun-ending should be is ... intimidating.  No doubt it just takes some more practice, but still...
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Antheil
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« Reply #107 on: 17:27:15, 22-08-2008 »

You count up to 10.  Starting with five and up  it is the ending -ov. Before that 2 and 3 and 4 are the same -a ending.
Yeah (provided you're talking about male nouns anyway), but trying to figure out what the gender of the noun is and then to remember what the correct case is to use, and then to remember what the corresponding noun-ending should be is ... intimidating.  No doubt it just takes some more practice, but still...


Well, not to confuse t-p even more,  in Welsh we have you and you (or two ewes tethered to a lamp post which is an Olde Englishe Joke referring to Pontypridd Leisure Centre which quite honestly wears a bit thin after the fourteenth repetition)

Ti and chi. Ti is the singular informal, used when you’re talking one-on-one with your friends; chi is formal or plural,  use it with  a group of people. Verb forms also change to reflect this, thus alli di? and allwch chi?, both mean ‘can you?’

What's on The Proms tongight?

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Reality, sa molesworth 2, is so sordid it makes me shudder
trained-pianist
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« Reply #108 on: 17:42:32, 22-08-2008 »

The word Ti means the same in Russian. I always found it strange.
Ti is you familiar. Am I right, Antheil?


increpatio, Are they teaching you time? Example there is with 1 o'clock, 2 o'clock etc.
Then it is with minutes. Minuta is faminine and hour is masculine.
The best it to play with time and say: Now it is 22 hour. Don't mix the hour and min for a while.


If you will understand that you will get masculine and faminine endings. It is not one day work. Children learn it in some grade for a long time (don't know what grade).


If Reiner will come he will explain it to you better than I can.
« Last Edit: 17:46:13, 22-08-2008 by trained-pianist » Logged
trained-pianist
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« Reply #109 on: 17:50:37, 22-08-2008 »

I don't know much about Kelts (or is it Celts?). But I know that they lived in the part where Russia is now.
They were called sceffs.
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #110 on: 18:02:20, 22-08-2008 »

Spelt 'Celt', pronounced 'Kelt' t-p (except for the Glasgow football team, they're 'Celtic' pronounced 'Seltic' - as if we haven't confused you enough with Glasgow already). There was a time when the Celts were all over Europe, from Greece and the Balkans through Northern Italy to Spain as well as France, Ireland and Britain: as more invaders came into Europe, they tended to get pushed to the extremities, which is where they tend to be now.


(I'm so glad about the faminine ending, by the way. Does this mean there'll be plenty of food?   Cheesy
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #111 on: 18:07:38, 22-08-2008 »

Ron Dough,
Can you tell that sceffs sound very similar to Scott. Vowels and consonants are interchange for some reson when they go from one language to another. Or may be there were different tribes of Celts.

It is so difficult to write. The minut one began relax one makes mistake.

I have an excuse: There was a student with ADD at the door.
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Antheil
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« Reply #112 on: 18:15:27, 22-08-2008 »

Researchers documenting the history of Welsh have traced it back to the plains of Russia 6,000 years ago.

And an equally intriguing claim that the Scottish borders represented "the cradle of Welsh" 1,500 years ago

Miss Glyn, the Welsh-language Children's Poet Laureate, said, "We were given the most incredible welcome in Kasmodar in south-west Russia where the series starts. Russian film crews came out to film us filming there. They had never heard of the Welsh language and were amazed that we had travelled so far to film. Most of them had never ventured further than their own square mile."

But while today's local population might not travel far, the language that flourished there in about 4,000BC between the Caspian and Black Seas certainly has.

It is there that linguistic historians believe the so-called "Indo-European" group of languages first developed among a tribe of nomadic farmers. This common language would eventually spread and give rise to such diverse tongues as Welsh, German and Sanskrit

So, Gossamer Beynon, as the cradle of European languages, you have reason to be so proud as you high heel down the High Street out of school.  Eyes run from the trees and windows of the street steaming and strip her to the nipples and the bees.  She blazes past the Sailors Arms.  Sinbad Sailors places on her thighs still dewdamp his reverent goat-bearded fingers.

George, where are you?  She says she likes all cucumber and hooves!

Fancy that, Welsh, the oldest of languages!  Mind you, I am not surprised.

It's why no-one can understand it!  Cheesy



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Reality, sa molesworth 2, is so sordid it makes me shudder
increpatio
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« Reply #113 on: 18:22:53, 22-08-2008 »

Researchers documenting the history of Welsh have traced it back to the plains of Russia 6,000 years ago.
In Irish there's no familiar/formal distinction I think, but you is 'tu', which presumably is related.

Fascinating stuff.

increpatio, Are they teaching you time?
No; I think we were counting vegetables actually Cheesy  Learning how to tell the time is a good idea though!  (I think we'll be doing that soon...there are a lot of role-plays in the next section about having a forgetful old Russian landlady who always asks what time it is...).
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #114 on: 18:27:28, 22-08-2008 »

If Reiner will come he will explain it to you better than I can.

"Follow that intro!" as they say Wink

I'm not sure I can add much, though - Russian has m, f & n nouns, and adjectives that agree with them - there are many other languages which have this set-up too.

The oddest peculiarity, and one which always needs concentration from me as a non-native speaker, is that the noun for "a man" - "muzhschina" - is actually feminine, and declines according to feminine rules...  yet adjectives which describe that man remain masculine and decline by opposite rules.  The result is likely to put the timid learner into Care In The Community...  the pure anarchy in things like "Ivan the Terrible was a powerful leader but a vicious man" (Ivan Grozny byl vlastny rukovoditel', a strashny muzhschina*) leaves me cross-eyed.  If you start venturing off into the genitive case with that kind of thing ("strashnogo muzhschiny"), I need to sit down with a cup of tea to recover afterwards  Shocked  Huh  Shocked   I think even Russians must hear this ghastly jolt - they seem to use "person" (m) rather than "muzhschina" in cases where it crops up?

* or even worse, if you want to be poetic: "Ivan Grozny byl vlastnym rukovoditelem, a strashnym muzhschyny"  (now I do need to sit down!)
« Last Edit: 18:30:25, 22-08-2008 by Reiner Torheit » Logged

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richard barrett
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« Reply #115 on: 18:27:46, 22-08-2008 »

Researchers documenting the history of Welsh have traced it back to the plains of Russia 6,000 years ago.

At that time they began their long westward migration in search of a better quality of rain.
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Antheil
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« Reply #116 on: 18:40:39, 22-08-2008 »

Researchers documenting the history of Welsh have traced it back to the plains of Russia 6,000 years ago.

At that time they began their long westward migration in search of a better quality of rain.

richard, there is no better quality or rain, seaweed or cockles, than in Wales however:

So two o'clock is dau o'r gloch. But if you want to say at two o'clock it is am ddau o'r gloch. Or for it is two o'clock it becomes mae'n ddau o'r gloch. One extra d that makes all the difference.

And then you realise that of one to 10, only five numbers have a mutuation.

Once you get past 10 those archaic numbers also start to rear their ugly heads. Eleven we had learnt was un deg un, yet eleven o'clock is unarddeg o'r gloch. Twelve is un deg dau, yet twelve o'clock becomes deuddeg o'r gloch. Desperately close to dau ddeg, which I'm sure you all know is 20.

For reasons best known to the Welsh, they have decided to stick with the older, no-longer used version of 11 and 12, but only for the purposes of telling the time.


And deuddeg, of course, takes a mutation. A double mutation if you like, because the ddeg part is a mutation in itself. Doesn't a double negative make a positive? Isn't a double mutation cancelled out?

Gurgle!!  Composing music has to be easier than this!  As you well know! Cheesy


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Reality, sa molesworth 2, is so sordid it makes me shudder
trained-pianist
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« Reply #117 on: 18:42:04, 22-08-2008 »

Sorry for interrupting. There are two conversations going on.


It is funny you say Man is a female word. It is not. For some reason it has a female ending. I have to say I nevere noticed it.
I can honestly say that I neveer noticed it.
When you learn as a child and you do cases in school you already know a lot about the language.

It is important not to concentrate on being correct. There are some cases (in English too) when several ways are correct.
I think it is important to understand what the person is saying. One has to be aware of different ways of saying things.
But when you yourself speak you have a choice. You can choose the way you understand better and wait until intuition will kick in.

Just listen them saying it again and again. Teacher in class repeats things thousand of times. Sometimes they repeat exactly the same thing and sometimes they say the same thing differently.

I personally often can not say the way I want to. I will look for another way that would express what I want to say.

It is because I have one language that is stronger than another. I can express more subtly myself in one language, and cruedly in another.


« Last Edit: 18:44:59, 22-08-2008 by trained-pianist » Logged
Antheil
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« Reply #118 on: 19:12:57, 22-08-2008 »

Will leave it to others, off to cook!

« Last Edit: 19:17:10, 22-08-2008 by Antheil » Logged

Reality, sa molesworth 2, is so sordid it makes me shudder
time_is_now
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« Reply #119 on: 12:59:25, 23-08-2008 »

It is important not to concentrate on being correct.
Here endeth the day's lesson. Wink
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