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Author Topic: Sie & du  (Read 2493 times)
richard barrett
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« Reply #75 on: 21:40:52, 19-08-2008 »

If it's a more subtle point being conveyed about familiarity/formality, you might change from the use of "Mr Bloggs" to "Fred" or something like that ...

Your intrepid correspondent, being presently in the land of Heine and Heino, thought he would ask a couple of friends who have read plenty of English literature in German translation, and the answer is exactly as Herr Jetzt suggests: that a good rule of thumb is to place the transition where in the English text the relationship switches to first-name terms, if it does. It doesn't always work exactly like that of course, but you'd know that already.
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #76 on: 07:53:53, 20-08-2008 »

With my very limited knowledge of languages and diminished ability to analyse things I came to conclusion that language reflect basic character of people's nationality.

I think English and German people are methodical. It doesn't mean that Russians are not methodical. They are or can be and all people different. But language organizes your mind.

For example. if I don't have to think the phrase through in Russian. I can add adjectives after nouns if I forgot them. It can sound a little strange, but still all right.

Saw I today car blue passing by.

You can never imagine any of you saying something like that. Plus you will have to say I have seen. You have too many present tenses. Russian present is lasts all day and changes to past only when it is yesterday.

Another difficult thing for struggles like me.

Sorry, may be it is not politically correct to say, but I am not really specialist in this area.
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #77 on: 08:00:59, 20-08-2008 »

Sorry, I said it all wrong.
Russian past starts right after I saw something.
For example: if the car just passed by it is in the past already.
I saw you today. I wrote my last post already.

English present lasts longer.
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Ted Ryder
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« Reply #78 on: 10:44:53, 20-08-2008 »

  Many thanks  time_is_now and Richard. What does it say, I wonder, about the English that the "Thou" died out or prehaps never fully developed?

  Trained pianist may well be saying something very interesting re language and national character. Does someone bilingual from birth feel they possess two "MEs"?

    I understanding nothing and I mean NOTHING about the writings Chomsky or Wittgenstein but I wonder ( I have too much time on my hands) if either expressed any thoughts, translatable into plain English, about now use of a specific language had any bearing on their theory of language in general.   
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richard barrett
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« Reply #79 on: 11:18:49, 20-08-2008 »

I wonder ( I have too much time on my hands) if either expressed any thoughts, translatable into plain English, about now use of a specific language had any bearing on their theory of language in general.  

There has been much controversy on that point and it isn't going to stop any time soon. Early on in the development of linguistics as a science, Benjamin Lee Whorf and Edward Sapir, studying Native American languages, developed what came to be known as the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis which, to put it simply, holds that patterns of language determine patterns of thought.

George Steiner, himself multilingual, in his After Babel - aspects of language and translation (which is a very thought-provoking but non-technical book and was my introduction to the whole subject), attacks this idea head-on; Chomsky on the other hand doesn't, although it's clear that his theory of linguistic universals would imply that Sapir and Whorf had things the wrong way around. As a non-specialist but interested party I tend to go with Chomsky on this question. His ideas have been criticised on the grounds that they emerge from study of a restricted range of languages and prinicipally English, but that situation is in the process of being filled out, even if some of the results seem to contradict the "strong" version of generative grammar. It may be a too intractably complex situation for science to deal with.

As for Wittgenstein, I don't know his work so well though I suspect he has something of Heidegger's (explicitly stated!) belief that German is a better language than others for doing philosophy in.

My daughter has been "bilingual from birth" and I am pretty sure she doesn't think of herself as having two personalities determined by the two languages she speaks. In fact every stage in her acquisition of language has tended to convince me that there's a deep truth in Chomsky's theory, even if the details are still confused.
« Last Edit: 11:20:24, 20-08-2008 by richard barrett » Logged
trained-pianist
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« Reply #80 on: 11:24:28, 20-08-2008 »

I have here someone who knows Chomsky's mathematical works on languages, but not later works.
I will have to wait until someone comes alone here to talk about that.

I hope my English language behaves better today, than yesterday. I had a little more sleep today.


With no benefit of knowing Chomsky I can say, that if people are bilingual they are by definition exposed to two cultures from an early days.
These two (three if they move contries) influences are not equal. I have some experience watching friend's children grow.

At first it is mother's tang. It is interesting that children understand you in all languages from the start. The family can live in one country, but visit the other grandmother for example in (the) summer. Then the child is exposed to another culture.

If they don't visit the country of their first language then this language stays baby-language. If the family makes an effort and reads to the child a lot, then the language is not child like, but too "bookish".

If the child who has baby language visit the other country when they are 10 -20, they pick everything up from that language and they have no (or very slight) accent.


I have seen it many times. I am not phychologist or an expert, just an "long time" immigrant.

The culture of a child is the culture of the country he/she grows in with modifications (influences of the parents).

Also it depend on the parents. I am talking about european nationalities like Poles, Russians etc. The children can and are trying to be like every body else. They don't like to be different. (Here I go again with triviality).

It is not easy for children of immigrants. They suffer that they are different (strange) etc.


I understand the post is very chatty, but I am not Einstein. 


« Last Edit: 11:49:27, 20-08-2008 by trained-pianist » Logged
richard barrett
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« Reply #81 on: 11:35:40, 20-08-2008 »

What does it say, I wonder, about the English that the "Thou" died out or prehaps never fully developed?

It is, though, still just about in use in Yorkshire and a couple of other places, and among Quakers (how true is that? I've never heard it myself).
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Ted Ryder
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« Reply #82 on: 11:59:35, 20-08-2008 »

 Richard, I know I said I had too much time on my hands  ... but really Grin. Thanks very much I shall try to get my head around Sapir-Whorf, I do find the subject very interesting.

  Thanks t-p How very strange that the use of baby language eliminates an accent
even after a break of 20 years
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #83 on: 12:10:27, 20-08-2008 »

I did not want to say baby language. I meant underdeveloped language that is very childish and not rich in idioms. Children pick a lot of these things from school.
Also some prononciation could be with an accent after the child is five years old.

They also make many mistakes and are corrected.

When we lived in the USA there was no possibility to visit Russia, so the children of immigrants spoke with different degree of accent and wrong intonation.
After the fall of the USSR many immigrants started to go back to Russia to visit. There were some opportunities for children to go to study or even work in Russia. (or visit the family if they were little).
They had advantage of knowing English and were very usefu for companies.

If they studied they would have initial difficult period, they were usually behind academically, but after some period they would adjust. Because they interacted with other students they would pick up a lot of new expressions.

They could adjust and blend easily because they had the basics, prononciation would improve, vocabulary grow etc.




In Russia aristocrats spoke French mostly.
They were not Russians to a various degrees.

There were some that were completely French with a little bit of Russian character and behaviour thrown in.
There were mostly Russian characters with a bit of a French sprinckled for good measure.

One feel completely different characters in Nabokov family who was from English speaking family.

He is equal kind of Russian and English. I don't know how it is possible to be both.

When he was little he had a Russian nanny of course (wet nurse). There were peasants all around them and the family was Russian of course. They had no accent when they spoke. They probably spoke French too.

I can not express or formulate the difference that I feel was there.


There was German influence in among Russian nobility too. Of course many of them spoke several languages.

One cannot generalize, plus contrary to what people may think, I was born after Revolution and never met any of these people.

Perhaps I should stop before I say something completely wrong.

« Last Edit: 13:11:05, 20-08-2008 by trained-pianist » Logged
Don Basilio
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Era solo un mio sospetto


« Reply #84 on: 12:36:27, 20-08-2008 »

among Quakers (how true is that? I've never heard it myself).

No.  They continued to use thou in the C18 when it had fallen out of general use, because you had been for social superior and they believed in stressing that all are equal before God.

But they certainly don't use it now.

In fact the most common use of thou in English nowadays is surely addressing God in pre-modern hymns (and those places that use bits of the Book of Common Prayer) which is ironic.

I believe French translations of prayers used vous or tu to address God according to whether they were catholics or protestants, but I can't remember which.  God is addressed as tu in the approved version of the Lord's Prayer at mass, but Mary is addressed as vous in the Hail Mary (Je vous salue, Marie...priez pour nous)
« Last Edit: 13:00:56, 20-08-2008 by Don Basilio » Logged

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
strinasacchi
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« Reply #85 on: 12:54:32, 20-08-2008 »

Some American Quakers still use thee/thou - particularly among the older generation.
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #86 on: 13:02:06, 20-08-2008 »

Thanks, strina.  I'll ask my Quaker friend when I see her next.  I'd be amazed to hear that usage in among UK Friends.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
martle
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« Reply #87 on: 19:42:55, 20-08-2008 »

Thanks, strina.  I'll ask my Quaker friend when I see her next.  I'd be amazed to hear that usage in among UK Friends.

As an infrequent attnder of Meetings (and as a technical Quaker but not a practising one), I can confirm that they don't. Use 'thee' and 'thou', I mean. But Strina's right about old-school American Quakers - I've heard that - and it applies to other sects too, such as the Shakers.
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #88 on: 13:05:31, 21-08-2008 »

May we recommend the best book we know about the problems of translation and their solution? It is "A Textbook of Translation" by Peter Newmark (easily found at Inter-Net book-sellers).

Although he does not as far as we can see address in its specificity the question about pronouns raised by the instigator of this thread, the way to deal with it is covered in a general way, and he does discuss hundreds of other issues and give answers to questions which until the book has been read readers will not have known they wished to ask, even.
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Evan Johnson
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« Reply #89 on: 14:51:17, 21-08-2008 »

Thanks, strina.  I'll ask my Quaker friend when I see her next.  I'd be amazed to hear that usage in among UK Friends.

As an infrequent attnder of Meetings (and as a technical Quaker but not a practising one), I can confirm that they don't. Use 'thee' and 'thou', I mean. But Strina's right about old-school American Quakers - I've heard that - and it applies to other sects too, such as the Shakers.

I attended a Quaker school in the States for 14 years (although relatively few of the students or faculty were actual practicing Quakers, and I was not among them) and never heard thee/thou at all except in some old-fashioned ceremonial contexts.
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