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Author Topic: Sie & du  (Read 2493 times)
Bryn
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« Reply #45 on: 19:55:28, 17-08-2008 »

Quote
a concert of contemporary music conducted by Roger Norrington

Isn't Mozartian Stravinsky about as modern as Norrington conducts?
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #46 on: 20:28:08, 17-08-2008 »

Quote
a concert of contemporary music conducted by Roger Norrington

Isn't Mozartian Stravinsky about as modern as Norrington conducts?

Fie upon thee Wink  When he was MD at Kent Opera he conducted multiple modern works, including a stonking KING PRIAM which is still around on VHS sometimes Smiley
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Il Grande Inquisitor
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« Reply #47 on: 20:32:10, 17-08-2008 »

Quote
a concert of contemporary music conducted by Roger Norrington

Isn't Mozartian Stravinsky about as modern as Norrington conducts?

Fie upon thee Wink  When he was MD at Kent Opera he conducted multiple modern works, including a stonking KING PRIAM which is still around on VHS sometimes Smiley

And on DVD.
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Bryn
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« Reply #48 on: 20:44:09, 17-08-2008 »

Quote
a concert of contemporary music conducted by Roger Norrington

Isn't Mozartian Stravinsky about as modern as Norrington conducts?

Fie upon thee Wink  When he was MD at Kent Opera he conducted multiple modern works, including a stonking KING PRIAM which is still around on VHS sometimes Smiley

Never mind VHS, it was issued on DVD last year:



but is it more "modern" than Mozartian Stravinsky? Wink
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #49 on: 21:04:46, 17-08-2008 »

but is it more "modern" than Mozartian Stravinsky? Wink

Than Mozartian Stravinsky - "probably" is my answer Wink   Kent Opera did do more modern works, but I don't recall what in much detail, nor which Norrington was in charge of.   I think they did a few new commissions...   didn't they do Judith Weir's earlier pieces?  I'm sure A NIGHT AT THE CHINESE OPERA was a Kent Opera commission?  And during Norrington's tenure, too.
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
increpatio
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« Reply #50 on: 21:09:07, 17-08-2008 »

One thing I find tricky is when I've known someone in Germany for some time, on quite a friendly basis, and then I start talking or writing to them in German - can I use 'du' rather than 'Sie', even though they've never formally invited me to do so? Usually I do - if I've made a blunder, can put it down to English-speaking ignorance! :-)
I had always assumed the generic course of action was just to wait until they did, and reciprocate.

(oh bugger, I didn't read the three subsequent pages of discussion on this matter...sorry if I've resaid anything...)
« Last Edit: 21:15:05, 17-08-2008 by increpatio » Logged

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increpatio
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« Reply #51 on: 21:23:25, 17-08-2008 »

Opera fans are always given the example in Russian from EVGENY ONEGIN...  when Lensky is wooing Ol'ga in Act One,  he starts out in the first couplet with "ya lublyu Vas, ya lublya Vas, Ol'ga...",  but we hear him cranking-up the ardour by the time he gets around to the recapitulation - it's changed to"ya lublya tebya".   (In fact the entire opera is full of this - Onegin holds Tatyana at bay with a frosty "Vy", and by the time he's changed tack,  it's too late...  and a social faux-pas to address Countess Gremina as "ty").
Heh; I'll have to get a recording of that for our next russian class  Smiley
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #52 on: 21:49:23, 17-08-2008 »

I was intrigued that Norrington appears to have persuaded George Clooney to appear in King Priam...


And Italian has the complication that the polite form of you is the singular third person feminine, for vostro schiavo, if I remember aright, (and I am happy for corrections.)
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richard barrett
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« Reply #53 on: 21:50:30, 17-08-2008 »

Italian has the complication that the polite form of you is the singular third person feminine

So does German of course.
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increpatio
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« Reply #54 on: 22:45:38, 17-08-2008 »

So does German of course.
And Russian doesn't.  (Which I'm finding is actually taking a bit of getting used to...).
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richard barrett
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« Reply #55 on: 22:46:53, 17-08-2008 »

So does German of course.
And Russian doesn't.  (Which I'm finding is actually taking a bit of getting used to...).
And indeed neither does Dutch.
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pim_derks
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« Reply #56 on: 09:54:39, 18-08-2008 »

Dutch also has the archaic gij/ge for you, but in Flanders people use gij/ge formal and informal and u for you when they're talking to friends. Very confusing. Undecided

In the past, the polite u for you was always written with a capital U like Sie in German. Nowadays we don't see that anymore.

Good heavens! I wrote we!
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richard barrett
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« Reply #57 on: 10:05:53, 18-08-2008 »

In the past, the polite u for you was always written with a capital U like Sie in German. Nowadays we don't see that anymore.

Dutch personal pronouns are very confusing for foreigners, as I'm sure you can imagine: apart from the sheer number of them, you also have things like the u heeft / u hebt distinction (is it one? I've never been sure). These days I spend more time in Belgium than in the Netherlands, which only makes things worse.
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #58 on: 12:50:49, 18-08-2008 »

Between German homosexualists the "du" has long been entirely usual as may be seen in the title of this marvellously inspiring magazine now regrettably defunct:


The Japanese system is as Members might expect rather more complex:

First-person singular ("I"):

  watakushi (very formal)
  watashi (formal)
  atakushi (formal, female speaker)
  boku (informal, male speaker)
  washi (informal, older male speaker)
  atashi (informal, female speaker)
  ore (very informal, male speaker)
  as-shi (very informal, adult male of the Bay area of Tokio)
  atai (very informal or vulgar, female speaker)

First-person plural ("we"):

  watakushidomo (very formal)
  watakushitachi (formal)
  watashitachi (formal)
  bokutachi (informal, male speakers)
  bokura (informal, male speakers)
  atashitachi (informal, female speakers)
  atashira (informal, female speakers)
  oretachi (very informal, male speakers)

Second-person singular ("you"):

  [none] (very formal)
  anata (formal)
  kimi (informal, male speaker)
  omae (very informal, male speaker)
  anta (very informal)

Second-person plural ("you"):

  [none] (very formal)
  anatagata (formal)
  kimitachi (informal, male speaker)
  kimira (informal, male speaker)
  anatatachi (informal)
  omaetachi (very informal, male speaker)
  omaera (very informal, male speaker)
  antatachi (very informal)
  antara (very informal)

Third-person singular, male ("he", "him"):
  kare

Third-person singular, female ("she", "her"):
  kanojo

Third-person singular, neuter ("it"):
  [none]

Third-person plural ("they"):
  karera (living things only)

Some, or all, of these words (depending upon which authority one consults) are classified not as a separate part of speech (pronoun) but as nouns. The information conveyed in English by pronouns (both personal and possessive) is by your Japanese most often conveyed by other means.
« Last Edit: 12:53:33, 18-08-2008 by Sydney Grew » Logged
oliver sudden
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« Reply #59 on: 23:02:43, 18-08-2008 »

I was taught to be very careful, and that (for example) in a rehearsal situation, you should always use 'Sie' when addressing the musicians.
If you're the conductor or composer, yes, that's one of the situations where it would be odd not to.
It's been a very long time since I said Sie to another musician and I can't offhand remember any colleague who has ever gesiezt me - with the exception of Kagel, who says Sie to practically everyone (even people he's worked with for decades) although calling them by their first name and saying ihr to the group.

For what it's worth.

A standard German gag is to translate the invitation to use du with the English phrase "you can say you to me"...
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