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Author Topic: Poetry Appreciation Thread.  (Read 19823 times)
Don Basilio
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Era solo un mio sospetto


« Reply #630 on: 11:02:43, 09-06-2008 »

I believe that I've posted both Heaven-Haven and Pied Beauty before...

You probably have.  We are going to begin re-=posting soon, we have been going so long.

I thought about The Windhover, but although the opening of Deutschland is longer, I thought it easier to understand at first encounter.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Andy D
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« Reply #631 on: 11:25:18, 09-06-2008 »

There's never a bad time for a bit more Thomas Hardy.
Quite agree George
Strangely optimistic for Hardy, this one.
"Optimistic" is not a word that immediately springs to mind wrt TH.
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George Garnett
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« Reply #632 on: 11:44:46, 09-06-2008 »

Indeed not, Andy. It's a surprising poem, isn't it. Almost as if it comes straight from Feuerbach or some other 'Young Hegelian'. I wonder if he read them? The only other poem of Hardy's that I can think of at the moment that expresses any similar hope for the future is The Darkling Thrush.

(And I wonder if Derek Mahon had the opening of The Graveyard of Dead Creeds somewhere in the back of his mind when he wrote A Disused Shed in County Wexford?)
« Last Edit: 11:51:24, 09-06-2008 by George Garnett » Logged
Andy D
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« Reply #633 on: 17:49:54, 09-06-2008 »

The Darkling Thrush is one of my favourite Hardy poems but I'm not sure I find it all that optimistic.

The Darkling Thrush by Thomas Hardy   

I leant upon a coppice gate
     When Frost was spectre-gray,
And Winter's dregs made desolate
     The weakening eye of day.
The tangled bine-stems scored the sky
     Like strings of broken lyres,
And all mankind that haunted nigh
     Had sought their household fires.

The land's sharp features seemed to be
     The Century's corpse outleant,
His crypt the cloudy canopy,
     The wind his death-lament.
The ancient pulse of germ and birth
     Was shrunken hard and dry,
And every spirit upon earth
     Seemed fervourless as I.

At once a voice arose among
     The bleak twigs overhead
In a full-hearted evensong
     Of joy illimited;
An aged thrush, frail, gaunt, and small,
     In blast-beruffled plume,
Had chosen thus to fling his soul
     Upon the growing gloom.

So little cause for carolings
     Of such ecstatic sound
Was written on terrestrial things
     Afar or nigh around,
That I could think there trembled through
     His happy good-night air
Some blessed Hope, whereof he knew
     And I was unaware.

Perhaps it's just me but I read this as Hardy saying "it's tempting to think that bird knows the new century's going to be better than the old - but I know otherwise." (It's dated 31/12/1900)
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SusanDoris
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« Reply #634 on: 20:16:13, 09-06-2008 »

'The Darkling thrush' - I like that one.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #635 on: 11:13:59, 13-06-2008 »

Are we getting anywhere near?

Spoken like a true Surrealist.

I've been trying to track down a particular poem by Queneau which would have been entirely apt here (we had to leave the GOR room with this sooner or later). It begins with several deliberately untranslateable lines and ends with a sting in the tail that goes something like "et maintenant, allez me traduire en anglais!" I can't find it anywhere though. Does anyone out there know it?
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harmonyharmony
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WWW
« Reply #636 on: 23:24:18, 21-06-2008 »

my love is building a building
around you,a frail slippery
house,a strong fragile house
(beginning at the singular beginning

of your smile)a skilful uncouth
prison,a precise clumsy
prison(building thatandthis into Thus,
Around the reckless magic of your mouth)

my love is building a magic,a discrete
tower of magic and(as i guess)

when Farmer Death(whom fairies hate)shall

crumble the mouth-flower fleet
He'll not my tower,
                           laborious, casual

where the surrounded smile
                                        hangs

                                                 breathless

e e cummings (1923)
« Last Edit: 08:20:45, 22-06-2008 by harmonyharmony » Logged

'is this all we can do?'
anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965)
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harmonyharmony
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WWW
« Reply #637 on: 23:27:34, 21-06-2008 »

...and a pair of connected poems...

Edmund Waller
Go Lovely Rose


    Go, lovely Rose-
Tell her that wastes her time and me,
    That now she knows,
When I resemble her to thee,
How sweet and fair she seems to be.

    Tell her that's young,
And shuns to have her graces spied,
    That hadst thou sprung
In deserts where no men abide,
Thou must have uncommended died.

    Small is the worth
Of beauty from the light retired:
    Bid her come forth,
Suffer herself to be desired,
And not blush so to be admired.

    Then die-that she
The common fate of all things rare
    May read in thee;
How small a part of time they share
That are so wondrous sweet and fair!

Ezra Pound
Envoi


Go, dumb-born book,
Tell her that sang me once that song of Lawes:
Hadst thou but song
As thou hast subjects known,
Then were there cause in thee that should condone
Even my faults that heavy upon me lie,
And build her glories their longevity.

Tell her that sheds
Such treasure in the air,
Recking naught else but that her graces give
Life to the moment,
I would bid them live
As roses might, in magic amber laid,
Red overwrought with orange and all made
One substance and one color
Braving time.

Tell her that goes
With song upon her lips
But sings not out the song, nor knows
The maker of it, some other mouth,
May be as fair as hers,
Might, in new ages, gain her worshipers,
When our two dusts with Waller's shall be laid,
Siftings on siftings in oblivion,
Till change hath broken down
All things save beauty alone.
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'is this all we can do?'
anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965)
http://www.myspace.com/itensemble
SusanDoris
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« Reply #638 on: 10:25:20, 22-06-2008 »

I have no idea what to say really, except that I have listened to and enjoyed these latest three poems.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #639 on: 17:04:04, 22-06-2008 »

I wonder if DonB or anyone else is familiar with Donne's verse translation The Lamentations of Jeremy?

I was incredibly moved by this plangent final couplet, which is certainly stronger than the RSV (not sure about King James, I haven't checked) in its tone of bewildered accusation:

            For oughtest Thou, O Lord, despise us thus,
            And to be utterly enrag’d at us?


Here's a longer excerpt from Chapter 3:


I am the man which have affliction seen,
Under the rod of God's wrath having been,
He hath led me to darkness, not to light,
And against me all day, His hand doth fight.

He hath broke my bones, worn out my flesh and skin,
Built up against me; and hath girt me in
With hemlock, and with labour; and set me
In dark, as they who dead for ever be.

He hath hedg'd me lest I 'scape, and added more
To my steel fetters, heavier than before.
When I cry out, He out shuts my prayer: and hath
Stopp'd with hewn stone my way, and turn'd my path.

[...]

My strength, my hope (unto myself I said)
Which from the Lord should come, is perished.
But when my mournings I do think upon,
My wormwood, hemlock, and affliction,

My soul is humbled in rememb'ring this;
My heart considers, therefore, hope there is.
'Tis God's great mercy we're not utterly
Consum'd, for His compassions do not die;

For every morning they renewed be,
For great, O Lord, is Thy fidelity.
The Lord is, saith my Soul, my portion,
And therefore in Him will I hope alone.

The Lord is good to them, who on Him rely,
And to the Soul that seeks Him earnestly.
It is both good to trust, and to attend
The Lord's salvation unto the end:

'Tis good for one His yoke in youth to bear;
He sits alone, and doth all speech forbear,
Because he hath borne it. And his mouth he lays
Deep in the dust, yet then in hope he stays.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Don Basilio
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Era solo un mio sospetto


« Reply #640 on: 17:23:15, 22-06-2008 »

The last two verses in the Authorised Version are:

Turn thou us unto thee, O Lord, and we shall be turned; renew our days as of old.
But thou hast utterly rejected us: thou art very wroth against us.

The Donne is far more telling.  However the passage you quote versifies almost my favourite scriptural passage, and I find the versification makes it too, well, trite

(Thy mercies) are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness. 3.23.  I don't find that superficial optimism - life is uncertain, we don't know we will be safe every morning, it is only when we realise that we cannot cling on to safety that we can realise the wonder of life, when we do have mercies in the morning, they come as a gift.

Or something like that.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Antheil
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« Reply #641 on: 19:32:16, 22-06-2008 »

When I read tinners about Jeremy I thought of the Blessed Clarkson!

 I Am the man that hath seen affliction by the rod of his wrath.
 He hath led me, and brought me into darkness, but not into light.
 Surely against me is he turned; he turneth his hand against me all the day.
 My flesh and my skin hath he made old; he hath broken my bones.

 He hath builded against me, and compassed me with gall and travail.
 He hath set me in dark places, as they that be dead of old.
He hath hedged me about, that I cannot get out: he hath made my chain heavy.
Also when I cry and shout, he shutteth out my prayer.

 He hath inclosed my ways with hewn stone, he hath made my paths crooked.
 He was unto me as a bear lying in wait, and as a lion in secret places.
He hath turned aside my ways, and pulled me in pieces: he hath made me desolate.
 He hath bent his bow, and set me as a mark for the arrow.

 He hath caused the arrows of his quiver to enter into my reins.
 I was a derision to all my people; and their song all the day.
 He hath filled me with bitterness, he hath made me drunken with wormwood.
 He hath also broken my teeth with gravel stones, he hath covered me with ashes.

 And thou hast removed my soul far off from peace: I forgat prosperity.
 And I said, My strength and my hope is perished from the Lord:
 Remembering mine affliction and my misery, the wormwood and the gall.
 My soul hath them still in remembrance, and is humbled in me.

 This I recall to my mind, therefore have I hope.

 It is of the Lord's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.
 They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness.
 The Lord is my portion, saith my soul; therefore will I hope in him.

Nice to see folks still read their Bibles.  Reminds of that great Welsh Song "Everyday I wake up and Thank The Lord I am Welsh!  (Non-conformists turn away now)
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Reality, sa molesworth 2, is so sordid it makes me shudder
time_is_now
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« Reply #642 on: 00:19:09, 23-06-2008 »

Why does Eliot sometimes seem to have chosen an adjective just for the sake of the syllable count? Is the splendour really 'inexplicable'? Is that worth saying? It's like that painful sestina in whichever one of the Four Quartets it is ('O lady whose shrine stands on the promontory ...').
Right quartet ('The Dry Salvages'), wrong section. Here's the contrived mess I was thinking of:


Where is there an end to it, the soundless wailing,
The silent withering of autumn flowers
Dropping their petals and remaining motionless;
Where is there an end to the drifting wreckage,
The prayer of the bone on the beach, the unprayable
Prayer at the calamitous annunciation?

There is no end, but addition: the trailing
Consequence of further days and hours,
While emotion takes to itself the emotionless
Years of living among the breakage
Of what was believed in as the most reliable -
And therefore the fittest for renunciation.

There is the final addition, the failing
Pride or resentment at failing powers,
The unattached devotion which might pass for devotionless,
In a drifting boat with a slow leakage,
The silent listening to the undeniable
Clamour of the bell of the last annunciation.

Where is the end of them, the fishermen sailing
Into the wind's tail, where the fog cowers?
We cannot think of a time that is oceanless
Or of an ocean not littered with wastage
Or of a future that is not liable
Like the past, to have no destination.

We have to think of them as forever bailing,
Setting and hauling, while the North East lowers
Over shallow banks unchanging and erosionless
Or drawing their money, drying sails at dockage;
Not as making a trip that will be unpayable
For a haul that will not bear examination.

There is no end of it, the voiceless wailing,
No end to the withering of withered flowers,
To the movement of pain that is painless and motionless,
To the drift of the sea and the drifting wreckage,
The bone's prayer to Death its God. Only the hardly, barely prayable
Prayer of the one Annunciation.


The effect of increasing struggling-and-giving-up with '-otionless' rhymes is unintentionally comic, then embarrassing. 'Oceanless', anyone? By half-way through I don't understand why he didn't scrap the whole section; surely the only point of using a strict extended rhyme scheme is to show off your virtuosity as a poet, not your inadequacies.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Don Basilio
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Era solo un mio sospetto


« Reply #643 on: 10:30:14, 25-06-2008 »

OK, you win.  If that was the speech for the prosecution, the jury would really have no alternative than to bring in a verdict of pretentiousness on all counts.

We have had Donne, Lamentations and Eliot all on finding God in the experience of desolation or despair.  Here is something similar in a very different tone of voice (I know hh finds George Herbert lacking somewhere, but there is no disputing about tastes)

    
Bitter-Sweet
     
Ah, my dear angry Lord,
Since thou dost love, yet strike;
Cast down, yet help afford;
Sure I will do the like.

I will complain, yet praise;
I will bewail, approve;
And all my sour-sweet days
I will lament and love.

George Herbert
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Turfan Fragment
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Formerly known as Chafing Dish


« Reply #644 on: 19:53:17, 25-06-2008 »

Just want to chime in and say I've observed that composers from all periods have done some of their most remarkable work in treating the Lamentations text. I think in particular the interpolation of Hebrew letters in the course of the 'poem' has inspired formal ideas like no other. Is there any evidence of same in 20th-C treatments of this material? Seems the discussion here has not touched upon this.
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