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trained-pianist
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« Reply #165 on: 19:00:10, 11-10-2007 » |
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Thank you, Tommo, for your message. I needed that. Whatever people do around music is not important.
We are going to try to make Schumann sonata mad. I got through the first movement now. May be I will grow to like it.
I wish I could play Haydn. I love his trios. Mozart is good too.
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« Reply #166 on: 19:04:49, 11-10-2007 » |
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Do people really pay that much attention to Haydn?
Yes, his string quartets and piano trios are fabulous . |
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increpatio
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« Reply #167 on: 19:13:47, 11-10-2007 » |
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Do people really pay that much attention to Haydn?
Yes, his string quartets and piano trios are fabulous . Touché!  |
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strinasacchi
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« Reply #168 on: 19:31:03, 11-10-2007 » |
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Tommo - I expect violin technique and violin repertoire have developed hand in hand. I may be wrong, but I get the impression that the idea of writing down an "art" or "school" of playing the violin didn't happen until the mid-18th century (Geminiani in 1751, Leopold Mozart in 1755). If there are earlier ones, someone please correct me! Maybe there were some that have been lost. Wouldn't it be incredible to discover a text by Biber or Corelli or Baltzar on how they envisaged violin technique! But their music alone tells us much about what they could do. And the enormous differences in their music might not have been possible if they were working within accepted "schools" of technique. In that way, I think "schools" of playing can be very stifling.
Sorry, I'm rambling. My point is, by codifying what we should all be able to do, violinists who compose would be working within those parameters, and composers who don't play the violin would have a source to discover what is possible. Every now and then boundaries would shift, either because of a brilliant violinist who can do things no one thought possible, or because a composer demanded something violinists hadn't yet thought was possible.
Does this make any sense?
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« Last Edit: 19:55:28, 11-10-2007 by strinasacchi »
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thompson1780
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« Reply #169 on: 23:46:53, 11-10-2007 » |
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Oh yes, absolutely. I think there is a further issue - violin training for beginners, as we have done ourselves on this very thread, starts at the stuff that is fundamental to the classical and early romantic genres. Some of the more advanced stuff we have talked about is for late romantic and 20th century music. Over at MIDDLE (if I may call it that?) we've even discussed (or is that "disgust", A?  ) techniques for 21st century music, but these are not really taught to students, (are they?) And I guess technique for pre-classical is almost like free experimentation for someone coming from today's training regime - well, you say. By the way, how is it different to play on a short neck with no chinrest? Tommo x |
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Made by Thompson & son, at the Violin & c. the West end of St. Paul's Churchyard, LONDON
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strinasacchi
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« Reply #170 on: 01:48:27, 12-10-2007 » |
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That's a very good point, about where and when the basics come from. And I think teaching does follow a roughly chronological pattern. That has the unfortunate side-effect of leading students to believe that baroque works (other than solo Bach) are somehow "easy" or "intermediate" pieces - not yet fully up to speed technically. As for late 20th/21st century techniques, I certainly never had any training in them. Playing without a chin rest or shoulder pad feels very weird in the beginning. The violin is much lighter without a solid block of wood attached to it! I think the best way to start is to give up the idea that you can have a hands-free grip on the violin. (You will probably get that back when you're more comfortable.) Balance the fiddle on your collar bone so it sits flat. If you point the scroll more forward (not towards the left), you can find a position where it feels relatively stable. Don't put your chin on it at all - keep your head up and shoulders back. You'll find you're holding the instrument with the left hand more than you're accustomed to. Make sure the neck doesn't slip down into the space between thumb and fingers. Waggle around a bit to feel loose and flexible. You'll probably find that if you do gently drop your chin onto the instrument, it will be resting either on the tailpiece or slightly to the right of it. One school of thought advocates playing entirely "chin-off." I think it's the predominant method used in Holland. It can create a very resonant sound (there's nothing to dampen the resonance of the table), but I find it difficult to shift or play fast & loud separate bows without using my chin for some extra grip. I also find that if you relentlessly hold your head up, you can paradoxically become quite stiff in the neck. Plus it's tiring on the left thumb. So I use a mix. In quiet or calm moments I lift my chin to make sure I'm relaxed and to let the fiddle resonate as much as possible. In louder, more active moments, I use the chin for added stability. The difference in neck length I found hardly noticeable. But the difference in girth is considerable. (Ahem.  ) You have to learn to relax your left thumb all over again. (Particularly difficult as you're now using your left hand to hold the instrument more directly than you did with a shoulder pad and chinrest...) Sorry to be so long-winded about it! Ask further HIP questions at your peril! |
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« Last Edit: 11:22:29, 12-10-2007 by strinasacchi »
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owain
Posts: 52
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« Reply #171 on: 02:17:38, 12-10-2007 » |
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One school of thought advocates playing entirely "chin-off." I think it's the predominant method used in Holland. It can create a very resonant sound (there's nothing to dampen the resonance of the table), but I find it difficult to shift or play fast & loud separate bows without using my chin for some extra grip. I also find that if you relentlessly hold your head up, you can paradoxically become quite stiff in the neck. Plus it's tiring on the right thumb. So I use a mix. In quiet or calm moments I lift my chin to make sure I'm relaxed and to let the fiddle resonate as much as possible. In louder, more active moments, I use the chin for added stability. Being able to play even a conventional 'modern' violin without firm contact with the chin, assuming no position changes, was something I've picked up from various people. Similarly, there was one point when, to counteract tension that had developed, I was told to try playing with my mouth hanging open  (actually an interesting experiment - and to this day, I still try to check repeatedly that my jaws are open, even though my lips are sealed!) |
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A
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« Reply #172 on: 07:04:32, 12-10-2007 » |
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Interesting message strina, but don't you mean left thumb ? or have I read it all completely wrong?
A
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strinasacchi
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« Reply #173 on: 11:20:12, 12-10-2007 » |
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Oops, yes, sorry, the other right, not right. Will put it right right away. |
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John W
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« Reply #174 on: 11:34:13, 12-10-2007 » |
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strinasacchi, With regard to early published violin tutors I've heard Geminiani mentioned on Radio 3, I think sometime in the 1750s and indeed it is claimed here David Boydenand here (1751) Hutchinson's Dictionary |
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roslynmuse
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« Reply #175 on: 12:17:55, 12-10-2007 » |
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strinasacchi,
With regard to early published violin tutors I've heard Geminiani mentioned on Radio 3, I think sometime in the 1750s... Good heavens, has Radio 3 really been going that long?!! (Must have been the Third Programme then, I suppose... ) |
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roslynmuse
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« Reply #177 on: 14:13:48, 12-10-2007 » |
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Heard (and saw) Janine Jansen playing Tchaikovsky Concerto in Manchester a couple of weeks ago. I was impressed. Not least because she played what Tchaik. wrote in the last movement, there are some cuts that even now in our supposedly enlightened age are still made as a matter of course; also, a cadenza like passage before the final return of the main theme is often "improved" by playing it over a wide range of the instrument rather than keeping it focussed - obsessive even - in the bottom octave. Jansen proved that both opening out the cuts and playing the notes Tchaik wrote are perfectly effective.
Pianists generally don't have that sort of "traditional" (ie high-handed) approach to their rep - I wonder why some violin-dinosaurs do?
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A
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« Reply #178 on: 00:30:47, 17-10-2007 » |
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Went to Covent Garden the other day and saw 3 sexy young men playing string trios... they are obviously the best string players in the world Lord B... by your criteria A |
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A
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« Reply #179 on: 21:41:30, 27-10-2007 » |
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I went to a recital of the Elgar piano quintet this morning... pretty good it was , but the only faults in the performance came, in my opinion , from the bad leading of the first violin.
When I first started chamber music it was a lesson I learnt pretty quickly, the body language of the leader is what keeps the chords and entries tight, and what gives encouragement to the other members to attack unison chords with confidence and accuracy.
In the performance this morning several sections were not 'together' enough because the second violin ( a very good player) got no direction as to what the leader was doing. For example the phrase that recurs throughout... .. 2 quavers / crotchet descending... were not together nor was the passion there in the seond movement, the accelerando and crescendo were underplayed.
Anyway, I would be interested in comments from chamber music players about the importance of the leader's body language and how it contributes to the well being and good playing of the others.
A
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