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autoharp
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« Reply #195 on: 10:49:00, 03-11-2007 » |
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The original Academy of St Martins in the Fields was conductorless - those whose idea it was to form it were pretty fed up with conductors.
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« Last Edit: 10:50:50, 05-11-2007 by autoharp »
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A
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« Reply #196 on: 15:58:10, 03-11-2007 » |
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pretty fed up with conductors. Exactly !!  A |
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strinasacchi
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« Reply #197 on: 00:52:05, 15-11-2007 » |
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I've been perusing J.J. Quantz this evening, and encountered this: The viola is commonly regarded as of little importance in the musical establishment. The reason may well be that it is often played by persons who are either still beginners in the ensemble or have no particular gifts with which to distinguish themselves on the violin, or that the instrument yields all too few advantages to its players, so that able people are not easily persuaded to take it up. I maintain, however, that if the entire accompaniment is to be without defect, the violist must be just as able as the second violinist. A 250-year-old viola joke? Or a 250-year-old second violin joke? |
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martle
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« Reply #198 on: 09:13:00, 15-11-2007 » |
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So THAT'S where it all started!  |
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Green. Always green.
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A
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« Reply #199 on: 13:09:27, 29-11-2007 » |
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Anyway......
Strina, ( and anyone else!) can you tell me why the G string on my violin, now it is strung with gut strings, is squeaking when I move positions? Is it the string ? or should I release pressure more efficiently before the slide? What do you think? I don't have this problem on my first violin which has 'normal strings ' on.
A
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strinasacchi
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« Reply #200 on: 16:26:38, 29-11-2007 » |
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Hmm, interesting. I assume you mean the bow is squeaking on the string, and not that your left fingers are making a slight squealing noise as they move over the slightly rougher windings? (I'm also assuming you have a wound G with a heavy gut core, rather than a completely plain gut G? Although the following thoughts would apply to either...) I imagine it may have to do with bow speed. Even after decades of technical work, I sometimes find that the left and right hands want to mirror each other. In intense, difficult and quick left-hand passage work, the right hand/arm can easily start to tense up in sympathy - and vice versa. I wonder if the act of shifting, moving the left hand quickly up and down the neck, might be unconsciously mirrored in the right with an increase in bow speed. Gut responds very well to slow bow speeds, but is less tolerant of quick or flautando bow strokes, especially the thicker gauges. Squeaking is often a result of using too fast a bow - or too angled (tipped-over) a bow, where the hair isn't getting a good grip and full contact with the string. Another thing to consider is whether you actually need to play in high positions on the lower strings. The general consensus among HIP types (can't think of a better phrase ) is that you stay in the lower positions as much as possible. This might make for trickier string crossings, but technique seems to have been much more focussed on right-hand suppleness in those days. And having longer string-stopping lengths contributes to creating a resonant sound. There are times when you want the particular sound that goes with each string. Fugue statements, for example, can be very effective when each voice-entry is played on its appropriate string (soprano:E-string, alto:A-string, etc). But do consider refingering so you don't have to go into higher positions on the lower strings too often. I hope this helps - let me know if I've got the right end of the question!  PS Using a softer left-finger pressure can help change tone colour - either by relaxing the pressure or slightly flattening the fingers so you use the fleshier part of the fingertip. But this is most noticeable on the thinner strings, and I don't think will create or prevent squeaking. It's worth experimenting, though! |
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strinasacchi
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« Reply #201 on: 16:42:45, 29-11-2007 » |
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Just saw your other post, A, and I think I did get the wrong end of the stick, and you are talking about the squealing that happens when you run your left fingers over the windings on the G-string.
(For others who might be following this: modern G-strings are manufactured with either a synthetic or a very small gut core, and then covered with a couple of layers of metal windings. The top winding is usually silver, and is done with a flat wire - in cross-section it looks like a rectangle. This results in a very smooth surface. "Historically accurate" wound G-strings - and they only started being wound in the very late 17th century, and even then most jobbing fiddle players would have stuck to plain gut - use a very thick gut core, and are covered with a single layer of winding. Again, the wire is usually silver, but it is a round wire. The rough surface is then smoothed down - otherwise bow hairs could get trapped in the grooves between windings. But the surface is still much less smooth than modern strings. That, combined with the thick gut core, produces a very different feel, response and sound.)
You're probably finding that the tension on your baroque G is higher that on your modern G. It will probably help to release your left-finger pressure more than you would on your other fiddle. The higher tension might eventually make your callouses a tiny bit harder, and that may also reduce the noise. But it's just in the nature of the beast that it will squeal a bit.
The refingering option would solve the problem, of course, and may be appropriate more often than you'd initially imagine. But sometimes, as I said earlier, you want that basso effect on notes higher than a D...
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« Reply #202 on: 17:06:20, 29-11-2007 » |
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Strina, thank you so much for your interesting and helpul replies to my question. I did wonder about keeping the fingering in first position where possible, certainly on the G string. I have also been experimenting with releasing pressure before the shift more than usual too, that seems to help a bit.
I will have to work harder!
The way that the bow pressure and speed is so responsive is certainly a real awakening for me, it is magical!! To be able to press reasonably hard and not get that awful squeal we got as beginners is great.
Thanks again. I will keep you informed of my progress... meanwhile... Bruckner 7, lots of vibrato and tons of fast bow and position changes !!
A
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thompson1780
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« Reply #203 on: 19:18:16, 29-11-2007 » |
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Ooh, I'm beginning to like the sound of baroque violin more and more. Thanks Strina and A
Oddly enough I try to use slow bows with tons of pressure even on modern fid, more than I do bucket loads of bow strokes. The harder you press the slower you have to go to avoid scrunch.
Now what would I do for Bruckner....?
Have fun chopping and changing A
Tommo
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Made by Thompson & son, at the Violin & c. the West end of St. Paul's Churchyard, LONDON
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Baz
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« Reply #204 on: 20:27:49, 29-11-2007 » |
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Ooh, I'm beginning to like the sound of baroque violin more and more. Thanks Strina and A
Oddly enough I try to use slow bows with tons of pressure even on modern fid, more than I do bucket loads of bow strokes. The harder you press the slower you have to go to avoid scrunch.
Now what would I do for Bruckner....?
Have fun chopping and changing A
Tommo
...From a great violinist via a non-violinist(!)... One of the principal Beauties of the Violin is the swelling or increasing and softening of the Sound; which is done by pressing the Bow upon the Strings with the Fore-finger more or less. In playing all long Notes the Sound should be begun soft, and gradually swelled till the Middle, and from thence gradually softened till the End. And lastly, particular Care must be taken to draw the Bow smooth from one End to the other without any Interruption or stopping in the Middle. For on this principally, and keeping it always parallel with the Bridge, and by pressing it only with the Fore-finger upon the Strings with Discretion, depends the fine Tone of the Instrument.
Geminiani (1761) So we infer that (for Geminiani) all long notes swell and then fade. Also he tells us that the "fine tone" of the instrument results principally from correct bowing (and, presumably, therefore not from other tricks of the LH - e.g. vibrato?). Baz |
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« Last Edit: 20:33:59, 29-11-2007 by Baz »
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thompson1780
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« Reply #205 on: 21:27:02, 29-11-2007 » |
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Ooh, I'm beginning to like the sound of baroque violin more and more. Thanks Strina and A
Oddly enough I try to use slow bows with tons of pressure even on modern fid, more than I do bucket loads of bow strokes. The harder you press the slower you have to go to avoid scrunch.
Now what would I do for Bruckner....?
Have fun chopping and changing A
Tommo
...From a great violinist via a non-violinist(!)... One of the principal Beauties of the Violin is the swelling or increasing and softening of the Sound; which is done by pressing the Bow upon the Strings with the Fore-finger more or less. In playing all long Notes the Sound should be begun soft, and gradually swelled till the Middle, and from thence gradually softened till the End. And lastly, particular Care must be taken to draw the Bow smooth from one End to the other without any Interruption or stopping in the Middle. For on this principally, and keeping it always parallel with the Bridge, and by pressing it only with the Fore-finger upon the Strings with Discretion, depends the fine Tone of the Instrument.
Geminiani (1761) So we infer that (for Geminiani) all long notes swell and then fade. Also he tells us that the "fine tone" of the instrument results principally from correct bowing (and, presumably, therefore not from other tricks of the LH - e.g. vibrato?). Baz Baz, This is required reading for every conductor. Thank you Tommo PS Not sure I would go with "gradually swell unti the middle", but I do accept that heavy pressure at the bow change is a disaster! And you can remove 'presumably' from your addition.  |
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« Reply #206 on: 22:35:23, 29-11-2007 » |
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Ooh, I'm beginning to like the sound of baroque violin more and more. Thanks Strina and A
Oddly enough I try to use slow bows with tons of pressure even on modern fid, more than I do bucket loads of bow strokes. The harder you press the slower you have to go to avoid scrunch.
Now what would I do for Bruckner....?
Have fun chopping and changing A
Tommo
...From a great violinist via a non-violinist(!)... One of the principal Beauties of the Violin is the swelling or increasing and softening of the Sound; which is done by pressing the Bow upon the Strings with the Fore-finger more or less. In playing all long Notes the Sound should be begun soft, and gradually swelled till the Middle, and from thence gradually softened till the End. And lastly, particular Care must be taken to draw the Bow smooth from one End to the other without any Interruption or stopping in the Middle. For on this principally, and keeping it always parallel with the Bridge, and by pressing it only with the Fore-finger upon the Strings with Discretion, depends the fine Tone of the Instrument.
Geminiani (1761) Not sure I would go with "gradually swell unti the middle", but I do accept that heavy pressure at the bow change is a disaster! And you can remove 'presumably' from your addition. Tommo, I use lots of bow of course in something like Bruckner 7 or the Elagar 2 we just performed . Vibrato too , by the bucket load... but try the swelling technique with Baroque bowing when playing long notes without vibrato.... buy a Baroque bow... you will see... it is amazing , the difference. I find playing with only a small amount of bow really quite rejuvenating , and exhilerating... go on, buy a bow!!!! Thanks for the pm... most greatful. A Can't get the flipping boxes right, sorry!!!!!!! |
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« Last Edit: 22:37:25, 29-11-2007 by A »
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thompson1780
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« Reply #207 on: 22:54:18, 29-11-2007 » |
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Ooh, I'm beginning to like the sound of baroque violin more and more. Thanks Strina and A
Oddly enough I try to use slow bows with tons of pressure even on modern fid, more than I do bucket loads of bow strokes. The harder you press the slower you have to go to avoid scrunch.
Now what would I do for Bruckner....?
Have fun chopping and changing A
Tommo
...From a great violinist via a non-violinist(!)... One of the principal Beauties of the Violin is the swelling or increasing and softening of the Sound; which is done by pressing the Bow upon the Strings with the Fore-finger more or less. In playing all long Notes the Sound should be begun soft, and gradually swelled till the Middle, and from thence gradually softened till the End. And lastly, particular Care must be taken to draw the Bow smooth from one End to the other without any Interruption or stopping in the Middle. For on this principally, and keeping it always parallel with the Bridge, and by pressing it only with the Fore-finger upon the Strings with Discretion, depends the fine Tone of the Instrument.
Geminiani (1761) Not sure I would go with "gradually swell unti the middle", but I do accept that heavy pressure at the bow change is a disaster! And you can remove 'presumably' from your addition. Tommo, I use lots of bow of course in something like Bruckner 7 or the Elgar 2 we just performed . Vibrato too , by the bucket load... but try the swelling technique with Baroque bowing when playing long notes without vibrato.... buy a Baroque bow... you will see... it is amazing , the difference. I find playing with only a small amount of bow really quite rejuvenating , and exhilerating... go on, buy a bow!!!! Thanks for the pm... most greatful. A Can't get the flipping boxes right, sorry!!!!!!! I've had a (poor) fix at your boxes. I hardly play anything earlier than Mozart. And when I do Handel and Bach, I'm afraid it's on modern instruments. But I would follow Geminiani if I had a Baroque fid. On Modern, I get annoyed when players exclusively use lots of bow without trying hard for pressure. Perhaps that's why I react and spend a lot fo time doing slow bows with huge pressure. There's times and places for both. Baroque fid? Santa? Now a "kit" would fit in a stocking..... Tommo |
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« Reply #208 on: 23:53:48, 29-11-2007 » |
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Hi tommo, I am not really the expert here ( well scrub out the really!!) but I would suggest you get a Baroque bow, the fiddle works ok. I have restrung my second violin with gut strings, and as it has a slightly brighter sound than my first violin it works very well. It is the bow that makes the difference... until I can justify to myself the expense of a Baroque violin that is !! I got my bow ... believe it or not.... on ebay. It is a modern one but works fine, and was not too expensive ( under £100) Go on.... give it a whirl!!!!! A  |
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« Last Edit: 08:11:50, 30-11-2007 by A »
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thompson1780
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« Reply #209 on: 08:34:42, 30-11-2007 » |
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second violin Hmmm. That may be part of the problem too.  Tommo |
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