|
thompson1780
|
 |
« Reply #135 on: 15:14:10, 07-10-2007 » |
|
Ah, here it is! Esme is actually 'our Syd', and although the thread starts on plucking, Syd asked a great question about string tension, which led on to string develpment...... And it seems from this that the closest to gut overwound with thinner gut were Catlin and Lyon strings. In case the link doesn't work (it's an old R3 thread), here's what I wrote: The violin undertook many changes between about 1750 and 1830, notably a lengthening of the neck and fingerboard and a strengthening of the bodywork to cope with extra tension (a longer string needs to be at a higher tension to make the same pitch as a shorter one.) I'm guessing that Schubert would have been aware of these changes, especially as the Quintet was writen at the end of the violin's transformation period!
Strings are interesting. In the early years of the violin, all strings were gut. Plain gut was fine strands of sheeps intestine twisted when wet into a cylindrical shape. Catlin strings were plain guts strings wound into a rope when wet, and later polished to ensure even diameter. Plain gut ('Roman') was good for higher strings, Polished roped gut (Catlin) was good for middle range, and Unpolished roped gut (Lyon) was for the lowest strings.
The Italians like roped gut on the G string of the violin. Stradivari used a roped gut G string of 2.5mm diameter.
In the late 1600s and early 1700s, gut strings started to be wound with wire (overspinning). Overwound G and D strings were commonplace by the early 1700s, although the A and E were left as plain Romans. A fat gut string has a very strong, clear sound, but the pitch is a bit suspect. The metal gives the pitch more focus.
As portamento became fashionable in the late 1700s, the D string reverted to plain gut - sliding up a rough wound was tricky.
So in the early 19th century we would have had an overwound G and the rest as gut.
There were two approach as far as tension was concerned. The first aimed to have equal tension for all 4 strings (and pitch influenced by string thickness). This made it easier to switch from string to string. The other was to have as much tension as possible in the E string and low tension in the G string.
Spohr noted in 1832 that to obtain a rich and powerful tone, strings should be as large (fat) as the violin would bear. This meant that strings in 1830 were much higher tension that today - possibly around 35-45kg, compared to about 30kg today. Tension helps volume - hence the comment about powerful.
Cheers Tommo |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Made by Thompson & son, at the Violin & c. the West end of St. Paul's Churchyard, LONDON
|
|
|
|
strinasacchi
|
|
« Reply #136 on: 16:38:47, 07-10-2007 » |
|
Thanks for this, Tommo! As I understood it, overwound D's were perhaps not as commonplace in the early 18th century as was once thought. It also depends on geography. It seems the French used a demi-filée D for the first half of the century, and then reverted to plain gut for the shifting reasons Tommo mentioned. I think shifting on demi-filée is much more uncomfortable than on a fully-wound string - the half winding tends to become exposed as the string wears and it can feel like it will slice into your finger as you slide up it. I use an equal-tension set-up with plain gut on the top three strings and an "authentically" wound G. If I'm doing Monteverdi for someone more purist than me, I'll replace the G with a plain gut one. This set-up is pretty flexible - I've used it for everything from Muffat to Mendelssohn. Haven't tried it yet with Ysa˙e, though.  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
owain
Posts: 52
|
|
« Reply #137 on: 18:09:57, 07-10-2007 » |
|
My take on arm, wrist and finger vibrato is this: arm vibrato is created by the muscles of the upper arm, the biceps and triceps, which create the opening and closing I described earlier. Wrist vibrato (which I never quite got the hang of  ) comes from the forearm, produced by the mumble muscles. Finger vibrato I'm not so sure about, as I've seen people claim to be using it when actually the motion is coming from the arm. I do have a pupil who tries to use a electric guitar-style bend to produce vibrato, which is particularly interesting now he's tackling Handel  On Lachenmann: I'm more willing than many to attack my instrument (as Biroc will testify, should he wander into this thread ). Partly because its monetary value isn't that great. But also because I feel that many players are overly protective, concerned that even a few col legno strokes are going to cause massive immediate damage. Mine's suffered more from climatic changes, and even with the body coming unstuck at the point where I'm often holding with the left hand while working with beginners, presumably just because of the warmth and moisture this inevitably adds. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
strinasacchi
|
|
« Reply #138 on: 18:34:13, 07-10-2007 » |
|
Oh, I try not to be too precious about my instrument, for all my care and love of it. I regularly put it through its paces by changing the tuning to 415, 430 or 440. Haven't had it down to 392 yet, but I did have it above 447 once. That change in tension (plus the shock of going from graded to equal tension) had no worse effect than loosening the purfling a bit - easily fixed by rubbing a bit of glue into it.
But I've played a piece (in my past, "modern" life) where I was asked to knock the screw end of the bow onto the table of the instrument - loudly, no less. This could easily scratch up the varnish and compress the wood grain (the spruce table is softer than the maple back). Things like that I object to.
Another candidate for weird, wobbly vibrato (or throbbing bow vibrato - or electric guitar-style bending?) instead of a conventional trill: that bit in Brandenburg 5 where the violin and flute have wiggly lines over long notes while the harpsichord is getting ready to go a bit mad.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
owain
Posts: 52
|
|
« Reply #139 on: 18:42:24, 07-10-2007 » |
|
But I've played a piece (in my past, "modern" life) where I was asked to knock the screw end of the bow onto the table of the instrument - loudly, no less. This could easily scratch up the varnish and compress the wood grain (the spruce table is softer than the maple back). Things like that I object to. I'd agree, that's crossing the line...or at least, I'd view something like this as taking things to the point where the instrument is being treated as a consumable, in which case an irreplaceable one doesn't get used. The inconvenience and expense of acquiring, familiarising with and using a different and less precious instrument is therefore a practical matter, to be considered separately from one's normal duties as a performer. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
A
|
|
« Reply #140 on: 18:57:17, 07-10-2007 » |
|
My problem with the knocking of the violin , or the hand onto the violin is that , quite honestly, it isn't music anymore. It is just DIY noises - I have no interest whatsoever in any of this 'noise music' that seems to be what the majority of posters on these threads seem to enjoy. I do wish I could understand why.
I live (now) on the outskirts of London and hear these noises all the time without having to damage my 'precious' ( yes, precious) violin. ..... either of them for that matter.
A
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Well, there you are.
|
|
|
|
thompson1780
|
|
« Reply #141 on: 19:08:22, 07-10-2007 » |
|
We are all agreed on not wanting to knock our fiddles then. (As you can see, it's too bl**dy difficult learning how to play the violin, only to throw that all away and get an apprenticeship in hammering.  ) Owain - so true about people often using biceps and triceps and then calling it a finger vibrato. I think what they do is that instead of letting the finger move sympathetically with the result of the arm muscles they somehow get teh finger to move at the wrong time, and the ibrations are out of synch. (Just yucky, IYAM). Genuine finger vibrato is more of an up and down, tight vibrato. And I too am a violinist who can't see the point of wrist vibrato, so I haven't learnt the name of the mumble muscles ! ( Like it) Tommo |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Made by Thompson & son, at the Violin & c. the West end of St. Paul's Churchyard, LONDON
|
|
|
|
strinasacchi
|
|
« Reply #142 on: 19:18:29, 07-10-2007 » |
|
I hope you aren't offended by my use of the word "precious," A. I do feel that my violin is precious indeed! I was just using the word in its more vernacular, slangy aspect about a certain over-protectiveness that can creep in when musicians talk about their instruments, their hands - or singers talking about "La Voce." As for "noises," I don't know really. As I said earlier, I love the noises that are incidental to playing, to how instruments respond physically to what we do to them. And there are better-established "noises" that can be used for great musical effect. I imagine the first time someone deliberately played ponticello, people around shuddered in disbelief. Col legno has been around a very long time. When put in the right musical context, the "noises" make sense. And I don't think there's anything wrong with finding new noises to put into new musical contexts (as long as the instruments come to no harm!). That's not to say that every new attempt is going to be successful, of course... What's our next technical lesson going to be? We've briefly touched on ricochet, flying spiccato and up-bow and down-bow staccato during the spiccato explanations. Vibrato is coming along nicely. Anyone want to do double-stops and chords? Or how about double-stop artificial harmonics? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
trained-pianist
|
|
« Reply #143 on: 20:46:38, 07-10-2007 » |
|
I want to share my disapointment. It is not really disappointment, but I wanted to know opinion of better minds than mine.
Last summer violinst that I am playing with now wanted to learn Sinding violin sonata. For some reason he liked it. It is very Romantic sonata and may be it agreed with him (he is very young). I tried to tell him that it is better not to play it since Sinding is not accepted as major composer now days. Yet the youth did not listen to me and we proceeded to learn it.
Now he saw his venerable teacher, who did not approve of the piece.
I am dissapointed because I spend a lot of time on the piece. It is not a bad piece at all. However, it is not important.
I just want to know what do people think? There seems to be only few composers that people are allowed to play. The standards are very high I have to agree.
On my part I accept things as they are, but want to hide somewhere until the end of my days.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
strinasacchi
|
|
« Reply #144 on: 22:15:40, 07-10-2007 » |
|
Sinding certainly used to be a standard in the violin repertoire - not a core piece, but definitely a recital staple. If that has changed, it's more to do with fashion than any inherent fault in the piece. A lot of violin music is not "important" - there are so many flashy, fluffy virtuoso showcases, as well as sweet little romantic confections, that are not weighty musical statements but can provide some welcome light and shade in a well-balanced recital programme.
Maybe his teacher had other reasons for disapproving? Could it be that the piece was too difficult, or too easy, for his student? Didn't stretch any of his boundaries? Confirmed some of his habits rather than breaking them?
Unless there's some reason along these lines, I'd say the teacher shouldn't try to stamp his student with his own tastes. The best teaching I had allowed me room to discover and develop my own taste and style. A student is interested in what they're interested in, and it shows some strength of character to see the value in music that is not currently fashionable. So much music lies forgotten because of fashion. For a long time the Bach sonatas and partitas were either forgotten, or considered slightly embarrassing, lightweight works because the keyboard part was "missing" (and provided by well-meaning but misguided composers!).
(Not that I think Sinding is on par with Bach, but still...)
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
thompson1780
|
|
« Reply #145 on: 22:22:42, 07-10-2007 » |
|
t-p,
Great to have you back! I think Strina says it all really. Perhaps your student has more musical insight than his teacher, and can actually reveal something new and wondrous in the Sindling. The results will speak for themselves........
Tommo
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Made by Thompson & son, at the Violin & c. the West end of St. Paul's Churchyard, LONDON
|
|
|
|
strinasacchi
|
|
« Reply #146 on: 23:15:47, 07-10-2007 » |
|
By the way, t-p, I meant to add, please don't hide away! Before I joined this board I read it quite frequently, and always enjoyed what you had to say - and I'm very pleased now to have the chance to discuss things with you! (the way things are looking at the moment, though, maybe not so many people will be helping contribute to the discussion any more...  ) |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: 23:19:16, 07-10-2007 by strinasacchi »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
A
|
|
« Reply #147 on: 23:40:01, 07-10-2007 » |
|
I agree with Tommo and strina, a student should be allowed to try all types of music and not just be told what to play. The piano teacher I had until I went to RAM was very classical in style and refused to allow me to learn 'new music' unless it appeared on the AB exam syllabus!
My teacher of violin at RAM was almost the opposite , encouraging me to play any composer's works even if I only mentioned them in passing.
I believe a tutor should advise, and advise strongly on repertoire that 'has' to be learnt ( the Bach unaccompanied were absolutely standard in my experience!!) but should encourage adventurous behaviour. How else is the student to know whether or not a certain composer writes the sort of music they like..?
A
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Well, there you are.
|
|
|
|
|
|
thompson1780
|
|
« Reply #149 on: 08:11:41, 08-10-2007 » |
|
(the way things are looking at the moment, though, maybe not so many people will be helping contribute to the discussion any more... ) Oh. Er, have I missed something? What do you know that I don't (apart from an awful lot about the violin, that is.....)? I thought we had quite a good exploration going here....... I hope we haven't scared people off. Tommo |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Made by Thompson & son, at the Violin & c. the West end of St. Paul's Churchyard, LONDON
|
|
|
|
