Sorry to interrupt! I'm finding this discussion highly fascinating and I'm taking notes and looking forward to further instalments. Going back to the subject of intonation, though, I wanted to mention I've just been listening to this



which consists of two CDs of improvisatory explorations by Jon Rose (violins) and Veryan Weston (pianos, fortepiano, harpsichord, organs, harmonium, electronic keyboard) of twenty or so different "tuning systems", some of which have previously existed, some not. Quite fascinating. If you like that kind of thing, I should perhaps add; also if you're interested in tuning in all its aspects. Many composers who have worked with different kinds of extended tunings have (like Harry Partch for example) claimed that their system is the one and only answer to all the musical problems of the world. Jon and Veryan, on the other hand, seem to have thought to themselves "let's set the instruments up like this and see where it leads us". The whole stylistic emphasis of the music changes with each new tuning. Experimental music-making at its best. More information here.

Will Do!


Actually you can put a full stop right there.  Sorry to sound so pious, but I just can't understand why that particular marking is really required.

I'm very much like you in having to rub out markings - I try to use them only for learning a work.  All too often I end up rubbing out a whole load of stuff before a first Trio rehearsal, only to stick in a whole load of other markings as I relearn the work / need to learn what the other two intend.  And then as we go through rehearsals, I either rub those out or ignore them!

I love squiggles and words like 'Whaaaa' for certain types of accent.  Actually, accents have great words like 'Oomph', and 'Ping'.

owain - great to have another fiddle involved.  I think 5 may be what my teacher used - I have a feeling its an Eastern European thing.  I use + after the finger for extensions upwards and - before the finger for an extension downwards.  There is theoretically the possibility of confusion between a downwards extension and a move up in position.  But practically, the order of the fingers dictates what to do.  e.g. "2, -1" would be backwards extension of the first finger, and "1, -2" would mean moving up a position or more and then placing the 2nd finger.

Richard - thanks for interrupting!  Will have a look at that all later.

Strina - Yes, let's get back to soem virtual beginner lessons, and some virtual not-so-beginner lessons too!  (I'll help out tomorrow night.)

Tommo

Like Richard, I think, I sense a slight trepidation on the part of Tommo, strina, owain and A in their discussion here, due to lack of participation by others. Don't stop! I'm not a violinist/violist, but I'm learning a hell of a lot about technique, psychology, notation etc. just by reading. And I'll second George's nomination of this as thread of the month... or last month, anyway.
That's one problem with forums like this: it's too easy to assume that, just because people aren't replying, they aren't reading either. Not true, friends - not true. 

I'm glad this is all useful to people, so I thought I'd add something more substantial

The approach I was shown for spiccato and various related strokes was somewhat different, coming from a different (at least in principle) approach to the bowhold, and starting off with sautille bowing.  Or at least something similar to sautille, my teacher didn't necessarily stick with traditional terms, and had some fairly ridiculous descriptions which actually made more sense while learning them.  The bowhold treats the thumb and middle finger as a fulcrum, and the little finger as the counterbalance to the weight of the stick.  The other two fingers are passive for much of the time.

Roughly, things went like this:

• Place middle of bow on A string.  (Not the balance point, interestingly.)  Use the little finger, pushing down, to lift the bow into the air.  Allow to drop, and bounce freely, with the thumb & middle finger stationary, and the little finger matching the bounce of the bow.
• Do the same, but as you drop the bow, start a downbow.  (This also provides the basis for ricochet actions etc.)  Ditto, with an upbow.
• Same again, this time making the motion down-down-down-down-up (and lifting away), then up-up-up-up-down.  The motion comes from a combination of the initial lift and drop, and the horizontal stroke, not from any subsequent deliberate attacks.
• Reduce to three downs, two, then just a single down-up.  All the time this is beginning with the little finger lifting the bow from the string.
• String (hah) these down-up motions together, and you have the basis for a sautille stroke.
• The effect created, along with the tempo and the length of the individual notes, can be changed by gradually moving towards the heel, allowing the elbow to begin a slightly circular or elliptical motion.  The bow spends more time on the string as you progress, the fingers become more flexible (similar to strinasacchi's description), and there's a full continuum right through to a fast legato stroke at the heel.

Christ, I hope she's not reading this, because I've probably remembered it half-wrong.

Jon Rose is immensely interesting and fortunately for us immensely interested in documenting his thoughts and work. Here is a page from his pretty vast website.

http://www.jonroseweb.com/f_projects_temperament

The mention of Marx and of unequal temperaments being "the result of more natural agrarian laws" shows where his ambitions lie and may raise the one or the other eyebrow. Myself I am intrigued.

I will not be able to explore that further, though, as the disc RB mentions is available here starting at $42 American; but this thread is "free", so you'll still find me lurking here.

Funny, just looked at this again.  Here is where a 'shocking' fingering may actually have some sense in it.  Two notes earlier, on the E-G doublestop you'll be doing 1-0.  Do the next notes F#-B as 1-1 !  Actually, it's easy.  As you release the bow pressure for the change of bow, also release the finger pressure - that enables you to shift and cover both strings wth the finger tip.  Then you have a straightforward shift up to the G-E with 1-3 and an underpin 1 on the C.



I think your interpretation is spot on.  I cannot see any other meaning.  But it's so much easier to just playa normal 1 a#, shift to a 1 c#, then TAKE YOUR FINGER OFF as you play the 3 e.  It's ready to put down again after the 2 g.

Oh, I forgot to ask, fiddlers.  How do you go about the whole bow markings?  Like the meno mosso in the Prelude.  Would you do a huge bow on the bottom notes and press hard for the arpeggios to be loud?  Or would you just interpret the whole bow marking as appying to the full 6 notes?

Crazy, but I prefer the former here.  In bar 6 of var 6 of des ombres, I would interpret that as all 8 notes.

Tommo

I disagree, for a couple of reasons.  First is that a firmly-placed finger does produce a different tone quality to a lightly-placed one, as there is a difference in the loose flesh semi-stopping the string.  Secondly and more importantly, early establishment of the principle of a firm arch-shaped finger action, and consequentially developing strength in the fingers has benefits later on, particularly in the introduction of vibrato.

I think "firm but relaxed" (or "relaxed but firm") is what beginners should aim for (I seem to remember this phrase used to describe an ideal tennis grip).  Building up finger strength is important, but you don't want to build up tension in the process.  And thinking of your vibrato example, owain, I agree you won't get a good vibrato without finger strength - but you also won't be able to control (or eliminate!) your vibrato if the strength comes from tension.  Only a strong-yet-relaxed left hand and fingers will have the suppleness to produce controlled variety.

It's certainly true that left finger pressure affects tone quality.  This is even more evident on gut strings than metal ones.  Pressing hard results in a fiercer, more penetrating sound on gut.  Slightly softer fingers will create a warmer, hazier sound that is very useful for playing quietly in high registers, or creating a well-blended section sound.  But even on metal strings, you can use variety of finger pressure to good musical effect.  For instance, you can exploit the slightly richer, fatter sound that naturally occurs when you play a note with your fleshier 3rd finger than with your 1st by refingering accordingly.  Or if you have two consecutive same notes, don't always play them with the same finger - the change of finger will create a subtle but distinct change of colour.

Tommo - about those whole-bow markings in the Prelude meno mosso - I agree that the low notes should get most bow.  I'm not even convinced that the arpeggios are necessarily loud themselves - I'd read the ff as applying to the "bass line" statement of the Dies Irae, and the arpeggios are mere dazzling little flourishes decorating it.  I'd even go so far as to apply the technique (to some extent) to the accented high notes in the 3rd bar that answer back.  Maybe this is because of my baroque performance practice indoctrination - trying to bring out each voice separately, particularly bass lines...


OK, who's going to tackle vibrato?  I've spent most of the past six years getting rid of vibrato (except as a particular effect or ornament - I'm not a vibrato puritan), so I'm probably not the best person to explain how to acquire it.