Strin,

Yep - and huge thanks from me too.  I was struggling to know where to start with actually moving things!  As it was I started in a completely different place......

I find it fascinating that there can be so many different approaches to technique, and to getting basic movement messages across.  I'd heard the Geminiani thing before, and it is a really good position to get if you get it 'right' - but I find there are such a lot of pitfalls in getting there.  I'll give you an example.....

If you start from the holding position I describe, you do indeed have to 'pivot' by bringing your left elbow towards the right.  If you don't, you'll get the first finger down on the E-string F#, and when you go to put your 2nd finger down, it wil either miss the fingerboard completely, or you will have to stretch the finger itself.  I think the principle of pivoting is so that the finger can be placed in a relaxed way, and that you use only the muscle at the joint of finger and hand to place the finger.

So, you have to pivot, but if you do it wrongly, you'll crunch up the first finger too much.  You may not notice this when placing the 2nd finger, but by the time you get to the 4th on the G String, you may find your first finger has gone past 'upright', and has collapsed over.  I think the key here is that as you pivot, you pivot arond the first finger tip, not the finger knuckle that's touching the neck.  The implication is too that the thumb will move away from your nose.  And once you have teh 2nd finger down, you pivot round that tip......

It was all this detailed sort of movement that 'did my nut', when I had to relearn the violin at age 17.  My teacher would say 'pivot round here', and I thought I'd be doing it, but he would scream "No! Not like that!".

Arrghhhhhh!

Mind you he was much better on the bow.  Everything you decribe is absolutely correct, by the way, but there is another way of thinking about it.  Rather than think about what you have to do to the bow, and what you have to do with the hand and fingers, I got a lot from just imagining the bow moving on the string, pushed by magnets like a Japanese Train.  Somehow the hand becomes very passive and the arm becomes secondary to the hand and fingers when it is supposed to be.

Nevertheless, the wrist leading the fingers thing was very difficult.  The easiest I have got to describing that is like the fingers are an echo of the wrist - as the wrist is starting the up bow, the fingers are just finishing the down bow (and vice versa).

Once you get it, it is a most wonderful movement!

Now.....  Types of bowing?  Types of pizzicato?

Tommo

Tommo -

I like your "magnetic train" description *except* that it puts me in mind of the sadistic exercise my teachers made me do where I had to pull the bow smoothly and evenly, through its full length, keeping it suspended an inch above the string and never letting it touch or wobble!  Aaaargh!  Did you ever have to do that one?  Aaaaargh!

It's very useful, though, to have a more intuitive, zen way of thinking about technique.  Meticulously dissecting what happens physically helps, but can also overload the brain.  It's good to have another angle of approach.

Also, I have to admit, I never knew about the Geminiani left-hand-position thing until well after I had already gained some level of competence.  I have no idea how it might feel to a complete beginner.  Totally awkward, I suppose, but then again everything about playing the violin probably feels totally awkward to a complete beginner.  I honestly can't remember, and I didn't even start that early - I was seven.

OK, onwards.  Just as the first time you put bow to string it's best to use open strings (to avoid that brain overload), pizzicato is very useful the first time you put down your left fingers.  Leave the bow in the case and hold the violin as so admirably described by Tommo earlier.  Put the tip of your right thumb under the front right (as you look down your nose at it) corner of the fingerboard.  Keep your shoulder and upper arm relaxed just as you would if you were holding the bow.  Raise your elbow slightly to reach the G, lower it to reach the E, again just as you would with the bow.

The temptation will be to pluck the string with the tip of your first finger.  You'll get better control of releasing the string, as well as a fatter, more resonant sound, if you use the fleshy pad of your finger instead.  Some people use their second finger (which is usually fleshier than the first) - I find this harder to control.

As a child, I learned to place my fingers by a combination of listening to the pitches and putting my fingers on coloured bits of tape that my teacher had placed.  Most adults are too embarrassed for the coloured tape, especially if they're already well-trained musicians who don't happen to know how to play fretless string instruments.

Start on the A-string (physically the most "neutral" place to start for both hands).  Imagine the sound of moving from A to B - now pluck the open A, then carefully put down your 1st finger and have a go.  If it's too high, move the finger back a bit - if too low, move it up.  If you're very off, you may have to move your whole hand, as it's very important for your finger to maintain a stable, open arch-shape.  Your fingernail should be pretty much facing you, and you shouldn't be squeezing the neck with your thumb.

Having found your B, leave the finger in place and put down your 2nd finger.  Aim for a C-sharp, so another whole step, about the same distance up again.  The same instructions apply to how your finger should look.

Still leaving your two fingers down, place your 3rd.  This time, aim for a D - only a half-step higher, so your third finger will be a lot closer to your 2nd than your 2nd is to your first (pretty much touching).

If you're feeling very brave, and not too uncomfortable by now, try your 4th finger.  Go a whole tone up, to an E.  You can check your intonation against the neighbouring E-string to see how you've done.  If your 4th finger is short relative to the other fingers, its arch shape may be slightly flatter than the others.  This is fine as long as you still have an arch, and you're still on the fingertip.  Never let your first joint collapse backwards - a problem many children or people with very weak 4th fingers have at first.

As you're doing this, break down the steps physically so you're not doing too many things at once.  Place your finger, relax, and only then try plucking.  Don't try to put down the finger and pluck simultaneously.  Try doing it in a steady pulse.  If metronomes don't make you want to spit fire, set one very slow (50-ish).  Place the finger on one beat, pluck (or, soon, bow) the note on the next.  You can speed this up gradually.

It's important to leave all your fingers down as you go up.  This keeps your hand in its proper shape, keeps you from stretching waywardly for the next note, and also makes playing the scale in reverse much easier as your fingers are all in place, and all you have to do is lift them up one at a time.

As for pizzicato technique in a more advanced setting, I'm pretty rubbish at it.  I still prefer anchoring my thumb on the side of the fingerboard, although I notice nearly all of my colleagues don't bother, and just swipe at the strings with a finger sticking out from the bow.  If I try it, I inevitably hit the wrong string!  On the other hand, I can hear that you get a better sound when lifting the finger upward rather than sideways.  So I try to make up for it by (1) using the fleshiest bit of my finger pad, (2) making sure the skin on my finger pad isn't dry or calloused, (3) plucking a bit further away from the bridge than seems normal and (4) gliding along the string a bit with my finger rather than simply pulling sideways.  This way I can keep control, even at fast speeds, while not flailing.

Of course for chords and snap/Bartok pizz, you need extra leverage and freedom - so I don't use my thumb-as-umbilical-cord approach for those.  (Not that baroque repertoire requires much snap-pizz...)

Any other thoughts, advice, suggestions?

Well, in theory I agree with you Barebodkin -

But try getting a five-year old who is struggling just to hold the instrument and the bow properly to listen to themselves as well, and have the patience, honesty, and ear to admit when they're wrong AND THEN adjust it, all without dropping the bow or letting it go diagonally, letting their wrist go in, letting their fingers collapse, sinking their elbow onto their chest, etc etc etc

There are even seasoned professionals who find it difficult to play and listen at the same time (not naming any names!  )

It is tremendously difficult and frustrating for beginners to play the violin.  Anything that helps them create a decent sound as soon as possible is more likely to inspire them stick with it, even if it is a bit of an unfortunate cheat.

Playing the violin is just as much a physical activity that needs to be learned by how it feels, as it is a musical activity that is guided by how it sounds.  At least in the beginning.  The sooner it feels natural, the sooner you can forget about all these physical things and concentrate on sound and expression alone.

(some day...  )

Strina,

I am extremely grateful for you having risen to the challenge like this.  Your posts here and on the HIP thread make me realise I haven't given nearly as much time to HIP performance practice as I should have.  It sounds like a wonderful world.  I have a 1780 Thompson, which has a sweet tone but a small sound - largely influenced by the guitar struts inside holding it together after woodworm got the better of it!  But it has an extended neck and is set up as a modern instrument.  Maybe I should get a new modern fiddle for my usual repertoire and get it converted back to a barque instrument?

Another reason I love the fact that someone else is writing down violin method is just that it shows how darned complicated it is!  I think you are "on the money" for beginners, but there are so many variations to the basics for more accomplished violinists to consider - the variety is something I think is really wonderful.


Thankfully not any more!  One or two of my teachers suggested it, but the most influencial thought it was a load of cobblers.  He wanted even pressure on the string, not even 'lack of pressure'.  His remedy for bow shakes was more pressure but even slower bow!  (Well, that was one interpretation - and to do him justice, he did expect you to experiment and learn other techniques yourself).


Yep - awkward and a half.

I started at 8, but my first two years saw 6 different teachers (circumstance, thank you - I wasn't that bad!).  I got to Grade 8 by age 15, and then had a change of teacher and started from scratch again.  And I went back to basics at age 21 as well.  Frustrating, but really enlightening.

Thank you
Here's what I mean about complicated - things could be mis-interpreted without detail......
Don't pluck where all the sticky stuff from your bow is.  Pluck about 1 inch away from the end of the fingerboard.


You can use different parts of your finger for different sounds.  OK, so for a beginner we don't worry about this, but to demonstrate the options you have, well - tip, fleshy part, side, and then you choose whether you scrape the finger across the string, rely on stickiness to make the pluck, hook the finger......  HELP!

Some people use both first and second finger alternately - very useful in fast pizzicato passages!



Another place where we may divide.  Sometimes, I prefer to release the first finger once the second is secure.  Otherwise it becomes increasingly scrunched up as you ascend the scale.  But a good low hand posture should enable you to have all fingers down in first position - hence the Geminiani pattern is a good check.



Ah - glad it's not just me then!  And I agree all of these help.  It's just we might occasionally like a different pizz sound, so may have to learn another way.


What?  You mean Bach isn't supposed to be played like that? 

Tommo

(I can't believe I'm back on this site again... what time is it?)

Hi Tommo -

There's always some risk converting old fiddles back into baroque set-ups.  I'm very gratified you're showing an interest in it, but do be sure that your violin is in a condition that will accept it.  One good compromise is to have the neck replaced/reset without opening up the body of the instrument.  (Of course the sound post and bridge can be replaced by baroque models quite easily too.)  This means you'll still have a modern base bar, but you won't disturb the work that was done in taking care of the woodworm.  You also reduce the risk of losing the sound you love, which can happen when instruments are opened up and stuck back together again.

(It usually comes back again, but only after many months/years of playing it in.)

On the other hand, converting an old instrument may well reveal depths that you didn't know were there.  To generalize completely, instruments that have a dark, rich, but seemingly small tone tend to adapt well to conversion.  I bought my fiddle knowing I would convert it - it's is a small mid-17th century gem with a fat belly and a lovely warm sound that opened up completely after converting it.

Also be warned that this can become an expensive proposition!  The work itself is not cheap, and then you'll want to experiment with what strings are best suited for your violin.  Plus it doesn't make any sense to do it without also getting a bow - and one bow can easily turn into several as you consider whether you want a bow best suited for Monteverdi, for Biber, for Corelli, for Purcell, for Lully, for JS Bach, for Leclair, for Veracini, for CPE Bach, for Mozart and early Haydn, for late Haydn and early Beethoven, for late Beethoven, etc.

Of course, this is looking far, far ahead.  It's quite possible to get a great deal of satisfaction, and sense of "authenticity," if you can find a strong, flexible bow of, say 1720 or so.  You can get away with using something like that for anything from late 17th century repertoire through early-ish Mozart.

(I certainly don't want to discourage you!  If you have any more particular questions, either about equipment or luthiers/bowmakers to talk to, feel free to send a personal message.  I've never done that before so I'm just assuming that it's automatically set up for all members??  And just to get an overview and meet lots of people, I also recommend the early music showcase at Trinity that's held every autumn.  Just try to block out the sound of hundreds of people all trying out sopranino recorders.)

Ollie - re Biber's Battalia - I really, really want to perform that some day!!  I've had a brief and drunken read-through of it at a party once.  I don't remember there being any pizz in the violin parts, but I think I mentioned the word "drunken" ...  If I ever get the chance, I will pull out my most extreme snapping technique in your honour.

 

IIRC the "Bartók" pizzicati are only in the violone, to represent gunshots.

This has a cross-reference to another thread in which Ollie, Kitty and I were discussing the failings of "renaissance/ganassi" type Mollenhauer recorders...

... it might not be hundreds of people trying out sopranino recorders, but just one person going through hundreds of sopraninos, to find one that actually overblows at least the first sixth of the upper octave reliably and in tune!