A non-double-bassist writes:

The first bar would be "all-the-way-down" followed by "halfway-up", which would mean that the downbeat of the second bar would either have to be a downbow in the lighter half of the bow (further from the right hand), or an upbow in the heavier half, or a downbow in the heavier half after a hiatus which the conductor presumably didn't want.

Richard's right, I'm sure. It's a fairly robust dynamic there too, yes? So more bow required for downbeat accents in any case. This is less acute an issue on higher stringed instruments. Also, never underestimate the capacity good players have to 'fake it'! 

Perhaps Gergiev also wanted to emphasise the rustic, slightly awkward, slightly lumbering side of a "peasant dance in hobnail boots" by making the second beat unexpectedly heavier than the first?

I've played baroque interpolations of "rustic" dances where the bass section would have bowed that rhythm down up | down down up | down  (with a quick retake between the two downs).

The default HIP bowing for crotchets in three would be down up up | down up up | etc.  Sometimes it makes more sense to bow it out (in particular for hemiolas and menuets, which were danced with no step on the downbeat of the second bar).  Georg Muffat wrote in the late 17th century that the French style of playing in three would be down up down | down up down | etc.  Not that this is particularly relevant to Mahler, of course... 

tommo, strina,

I'd been thinking about getting my casio keyboard out from the attic and having another go after a break of about 8 years but while talking to my brother about our grandad who used to play the fiddle I started thinking about learning the violin, just as a hobby as I have so much spare time these days. 

Rather than a real teacher I might buy a tutor CD/DVD pack? Are these a good idea for someone who is naturally quite musical but not a great reader? Of course the tommo/strina starter classes on this thread could be very useful 

Watching ebay and thinking about a Stentor Student II model, is that a good starter?

For those of you seeking an authentic baroque instrument look at the price of this one:

baroque violin

Edit: the date looks a bit dodgy 17... is it really 1729?




What do you think?

John W

Hi John!

At the risk of sounding like we're encircling you, I'd also agree that learning the violin or viola from a dvd is like putting a mountain in your own way.  The DVD can't correct your mistakes, and if they continue uncorrected you'll have built them into your playing style in such a fundamental way that you'd have to start over from scratch some point further down the line.  These aren't tiddly things or points of finesse, but the underlying principles of getting a nice sound out of the instrument - there are lots more things you can "learn wrongly" on a bowed instrument than on others    For example, the whole business of learning to bow...  just simple stuff like keeping the bow at 90 degrees to the instrument (beginners usually tend to allow it to slip round out-of-line)...  learning to pivot your bow-hand wrist correctly to get "full value" out of every bow-stroke... moving the bow evenly...up & down... learning to articulate the beginning of a note so that it neither "barks" nor "squeaks"...

... and this is just to get any kind of sound from the instrument, before you've even put a finger on the fingerboard!   I am a truly terrible player, I freely admit - but at least my worst mistakes have been ironed-out by a super teacher.  I play other instruments (piano, trumpet, recorders and various early wind, and some grotty saxophone) and I can honestly say that the physical complexity involved in getting any kind of note out of a viola is around three times greater.  As Bach said about keyboard instruments - "depress the right note at the right moment and there is nothing else to learn".  But on the violin there's no "note" to depress, and nothing with which to "depress" it - one hand is busy finding the right place at which to touch four different strings, while the other is creating a mechanism that reliably causes them to "sound" in the way you want.  And you then have to coordinate the two actions.

This isn't intended to pour cold water on your idea, because I can entirely sympathise with you - it's the most expressive and versatile of all the instruments!    And if you already have a nice instrument to play on, even better!  But you will honestly need a skilled companion by your side to help you coax the beauty out of the instrument,  and eliminate the sound-effects of a hurdy-gurdy-man trying to kidnap a live armadillo by stuffing it inside the instrument whilst playing "The Pedlar Of Dumcree".

I dunno about you, but the discipline of a regular lesson acts as a stimulus to practice too - and sharing your successes and frustrations with a regular accomplice who is mentoring your progress is much more pleasant than the disembodied voice of some know-it-all on a video

My hit tells me that a and rei are right.  But there's something in me that wants to know if we could do distance teaching!

John - you could post clippets of yourself playing on youtube and we could collectively teach you based on what we saw.  Almost certainly going to take huge patience and may well end up in strains and pains, but an interesting exercise....

Tommo

Dunno, that sounds like it might be kind of interesting! 

About the "Testore" on ebay - I've seen instruments like that on ebay before (rarely but regularly) and always wonder if I've been a fool not to give it a go.  Even if it turns out to be nothing special, finding a working violin for under £1500 is no bad result.  But I'm much too skeptical (and cynical) to try for it.  If I had more money to throw around, maybe I would - but (ironically) being a professional violinist makes it difficult...  Who knows, though, maybe this is the modern-day equivalent of finding the Strad in the pawn shop.

The date on the label isn't dodgy for having the second half handwritten on a printed label - many makers' labels are printed with blanks after the first two digits of the year, with space to handwrite in the last two digits.  But labels in violins are kind of inherently dodgy.  They rarely are what they purport to be, and even the true experts can get it wrong.

I'm afraid I'm going to add to the chorus urging you to seek personal instruction, John, for all the reasons A and Reiner give.  Playing the violin is physically awkward at first, and there is some potential for injury if not done properly.  I don't want to sound discouraging, particularly if you think you won't do it any other way.  There are some self-taught people out there - but very few - and as Reiner says, most of them probably had to re-learn at least some things at some point.

Ah, I see Tommo has posted - oh my god, team virtual video teaching??  Hmmm...

Thanks for the advice, I can see the early lessons about holding the instrument, bowing etc need to be correct; I'll investigate the local teachers.

Is the Stentor II a good starter instrument for an adult? I think it's all wood.