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Chafing Dish
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« Reply #15 on: 22:10:52, 16-09-2007 » |
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Not really, since the scale degree 1 is landed on at the same time as the bass moves from scale degree 4 to scale degree 5 - is that still called a suspension (maybe it is, I'm more than a bit rusty on tonal harmony)? Anyway, wouldn't it be more normal to move from the Neapolitan harmony to a 6/4 harmony over the dominant note in the bass, and thence to 5/3 (chord V) cadencing on to chord I?
Yes, 1 over 5 is a suspension, because the interval is a perfect fourth, which is a dissonance. It's not like other dissonances, because if it's over a bass that's consonant with both tones, it's treated like a consonance. If you go to a 6/4 chord, then you have a double suspension, so no contradiction there... |
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time_is_now
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« Reply #16 on: 22:26:13, 16-09-2007 » |
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Sorry, maybe I didn't explain myself well (although I also think I was just wrong, which probably didn't help either). I was thinking a dissonant note was only called a suspension when it was tied over from the previous harmony, but maybe that's not true. There must be another word for when that happens. Everything has a name, as the Member Grew has recently reminded us (though we wonder if he has read even as far as the first page of Cien aņos de soledad).
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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Chafing Dish
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« Reply #17 on: 22:30:55, 16-09-2007 » |
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Right, I see. Well, then it's sometimes called an accented passing tone and sometimes an appoggiatura, though if one considers the 6/4-chord a harmony in its own right, rather than a double suspension, then one doesn't have to give it a name at all, avoiding much academic discussion.  In order for 1 to be a true suspension, the Neapolitan would first need to move to a normal minor subdominant chord. That would rob it of all its special qualities, however. |
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ahinton
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« Reply #18 on: 22:37:49, 16-09-2007 » |
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I like the idea of the Swiss sixth (not that I'd even be capable of enunciating the thing after a couple of glasses of anything worth drinkng) as something that could exist only under the direction of Paul Sacher = maybe it should be renamed the Basilian Sixth...
Best,
Alistair
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #19 on: 22:41:08, 16-09-2007 » |
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The 'Swiss' spelling is found at the beginning of Am Meer. A rather striking instance of the French sixth is in the second-last chord of the passacaglia theme in the final of Brahms 4 - replacing the expected dominant chord with a French sixth on F natural. Rather crunchy. (The 'Swiss' sixth is according to wiki also known as Alsatian.) only enharmonically equivalent Otherwise known as completely different. |
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time_is_now
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« Reply #20 on: 22:41:25, 16-09-2007 » |
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Right, I see. Well, then it's sometimes called an accented passing tone and sometimes an appoggiatura That sounds better to me. though if one considers the 6/4-chord a harmony in its own right I do. Hence my mention of the IVb6 to V6/4 progression as an alternative to the 'suspension' progression you'd mentioned. In order for 1 to be a true suspension, the Neapolitan would first need to move to a normal minor subdominant chord. That would rob it of all its special qualities, however.
Indeed! Ped * over. Glad to know my synapses aren't completely fused. It's 9 years since I learnt any of this. ____________
That's what pedants do, in case you were wondering. |
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #21 on: 23:39:14, 16-09-2007 » |
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Aside from all that I agree with Aaron that describing a German sixth (etc.) as 'like a dominant seventh' begs just about every important question going, since the 2 most obvious difference are (1) that its root is not the dominant at all but the flattened 6th scale degree (which then falls to the dominant by step, without exception as far as I'm aware); (2) that it's only enharmonically equivalent to a seventh chord, since it spells itself differently, i.e. C-E-G-Bb is a dominant seventh chord in F major (or indeed in F minor, too) whereas C-E-G-A# is a German sixth in E minor (or E major, I suppose). Hence 'like' - I've always found it an easy way to remember which is which. |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #22 on: 23:40:43, 16-09-2007 » |
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only enharmonically equivalent Otherwise known as completely different. Not to those who trust their ears, at least when music is played in equal temperament. The fact that many German sixths could resolve onto the key of which their root is a dominant should not be overlooked. |
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« Last Edit: 23:42:54, 16-09-2007 by Ian Pace »
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #23 on: 23:53:38, 16-09-2007 » |
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OK - now recalling your necessarily forceful recent diatribe against the absurdities of a certain musicologist on another thread on this forum, should we assume that a German sixth is a male device and a French sixth a female one?(!)... No, but I wouldn't be surprised if some nineteenth-century theorists described them in such a manner.... |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #24 on: 00:08:15, 17-09-2007 » |
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French - avoid dominance at any price Some Algerians might disagree  |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Chafing Dish
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« Reply #25 on: 02:19:16, 17-09-2007 » |
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only enharmonically equivalent Otherwise known as completely different. Not to those who trust their ears, at least when music is played in equal temperament. The fact that many German sixths could resolve onto the key of which their root is a dominant should not be overlooked. The famous passage is from Dichterliebe, op. cit., which I would quote in full were I not so lazy. It's page 12ff of this document. Measure 1 is a Swiss Sixth in Bb major, which in the second half of measure 8 is respelled to suggest a secondary dominant in E major. Truly otherworldly, and a nice way to make the German/dominant duality pedagogically accessible. |
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ahinton
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« Reply #26 on: 07:55:06, 17-09-2007 » |
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French - avoid dominance at any price Some Algerians might disagree Indeed - but just for the sake of clarification and for ease of understanding, could you explain an Algerian Sixth for us, Ian? Thanks in advance... Best, Alistair |
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roslynmuse
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« Reply #27 on: 08:20:11, 17-09-2007 » |
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French - avoid dominance at any price Some Algerians might disagree Indeed - but just for the sake of clarification and for ease of understanding, could you explain an Algerian Sixth for us, Ian? Thanks in advance... Best, Alistair See various works by M Camille Saint-Saens... |
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #28 on: 08:58:47, 17-09-2007 » |
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Not to those who trust their ears, at least when music is played in equal temperament. The fact that many German sixths could resolve onto the key of which their root is a dominant should not be overlooked.
The famous passage is from Dichterliebe, op. cit., which I would quote in full were I not so lazy. It's page 12ff of this document. Measure 1 is a Swiss Sixth in Bb major, which in the second half of measure 8 is respelled to suggest a secondary dominant in E major. Truly otherworldly, and a nice way to make the German/dominant duality pedagogically accessible. Here it is:  |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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ahinton
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« Reply #29 on: 09:33:41, 17-09-2007 » |
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French - avoid dominance at any price Some Algerians might disagree Indeed - but just for the sake of clarification and for ease of understanding, could you explain an Algerian Sixth for us, Ian? Thanks in advance... Best, Alistair See various works by M Camille Saint-Saens... Ah, your wit is quicker than mine or Ian's, it seems! Best, Alistair |
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