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Author Topic: Intervals (sixths and others)  (Read 1243 times)
Ian Pace
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« Reply #30 on: 11:21:14, 18-09-2007 »

Not to those who trust their ears, at least when music is played in equal temperament. The fact that many German sixths could resolve onto the key of which their root is a dominant should not be overlooked.
The famous passage is from Dichterliebe, op. cit., which I would quote in full were I not so lazy. It's page 12ff of this document.

Measure 1 is a Swiss Sixth in Bb major, which in the second half of measure 8 is respelled to suggest a secondary dominant in E major. Truly otherworldly, and a nice way to make the German/dominant duality pedagogically accessible.

Here it is:



A further thought on this Schumann passage - wouldn't the enharmonic use of the augmented sixth as a secondary dominant be considerably less effective if the tonic of the new key (or rather temporary tonal centre - the harmony is too much in transit to really talk about it arriving in C-flat/B major) wasn't enharmonically anticipated through the singer's passing C-flat (imagine 'chen' of 'spre-chen' being another B-flat, or a G-flat, for example)? This C-flat appears simultaneously with the sixth chord becoming fully unfolded, and as such acts as a type of 'passing resolution' (again enharmonically) of the A# in the piano. I suppose I'm wondering whether that harmony is perceived as a Swiss sixth (or equally a German sixth, as the difference is merely one of spelling), for this reason? Any thoughts, Member Dish in particular?
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Chafing Dish
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« Reply #31 on: 11:33:06, 18-09-2007 »

The fact that many German sixths could resolve onto the key of which their root is a dominant should not be overlooked.
A stultifyingly pedantic pedant writes: you mean "of which their bass is a dominant" -- the actual root of an augmented sixth chord is the raised 4th scale degree!
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #32 on: 11:37:19, 18-09-2007 »

The fact that many German sixths could resolve onto the key of which their root is a dominant should not be overlooked.
A stultifyingly pedantic pedant writes: you mean "of which their bass is a dominant" -- the actual root of an augmented sixth chord is the raised 4th scale degree!
Good point, despite its pedantry Wink
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Chafing Dish
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« Reply #33 on: 11:46:21, 18-09-2007 »

A further thought on this Schumann passage - wouldn't the enharmonic use of the augmented sixth as a secondary dominant be considerably less effective if the tonic of the new key (or rather temporary tonal centre - the harmony is too much in transit to really talk about it arriving in C-flat/B major) wasn't enharmonically anticipated through the singer's passing C-flat (imagine 'chen' of 'spre-chen' being another B-flat, or a G-flat, for example)? This C-flat appears simultaneously with the sixth chord becoming fully unfolded, and as such acts as a type of 'passing resolution' (again enharmonically) of the A# in the piano. I suppose I'm wondering whether that harmony is perceived as a Swiss sixth (or equally a German sixth, as the difference is merely one of spelling), for this reason? Any thoughts, Member Dish in particular?
I honestly can't remember my thoughts on this, and will have to re-conjure them. Unfortunately, it's too early around here to faff around on the piano. However, I would also not suggest calling C-flat any kind of tonal center.

There are several layers of obfuscation in this piece, the final and most insulting one being the constant registral shifts from one chord to the next -- a stroke of genius in this song, but it makes talking about 'passing resolutions' and other linear phenomena characteristically difficult to talk about. D-flat in the voice doubles C# on the 3rd semiquaver of the piano, so the Cb and B are themselves resolutions of this suspension.

I don't feel like I'm answering your question... in my vocabulary, the term 'passing resolution' does not exist. Can you clarify what you mean by't?

The '-chen' in the voice does in a wrenching way give away what's about to happen, so I agree that that's a pivotal, if brief, compositional decision... certainly both hypothetical alternatives Bb and Gb are wrong for a number of reasons.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #34 on: 11:52:15, 18-09-2007 »

However, I would also not suggest calling C-flat any kind of tonal center.
Yes. I think it's worth remembering that CD analysed the re-spelt chord in bar 8 as a secondary dominant in (a never-reached) E major, not a simple dominant seventh of B/C flat (which wouldn't make sense anyway, as the A# is already passing down through A natural in the accompaniment of bar 9).
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #35 on: 12:19:38, 18-09-2007 »

I don't feel like I'm answering your question... in my vocabulary, the term 'passing resolution' does not exist. Can you clarify what you mean by't?
Just an invented term (hence scare quotes), I was referring to how the A# partially 'resolves' onto the C-flat, very important in terms of the harmonic implications, but on the other hand very transient, being on a weak beat and weak syllable, essentially subsumed into the broader line as part of a simple progression up to D-flat. Re secondary dominants: yes, clearly F#/G-flat is V of V of E major, but that's not absolutely clear until into bar 9, which could also, if the A# moved upwards to a B rather than downwards to an A natural, or that latter progression were otherwise avoided, have led to a proper resolution into B-C-flat (try changing the lower F# in the treble to an E, for example). That notwithstanding, I still regard a key serving as a dominant, which is reached via a secondary dominant, as some type of passing tonal centre - the secondary dominant is still a dominant of something. B/C-flat major is implied (in bar Cool as much as E major is - only with the modifications in bar 9 is a resolution into B/C-flat displaced.

One other thought - supposing Schumann had spelled bars 8 and 9 differently in the piano, with the second dotted crotchet beat in bar 8 having a G-flat for the bass, and with B-flat/F-flat/D-flat/B-flat/G-flat for the arpeggio, and similarly with C-flat in the bass in bar 9, then he would have had to move from C-flat in bar 9 to C-natural in bar 10, which would be less than elegant on the page. Yet that is not necessary in the voice? But there I see this might be a case of what Schumann often did so brilliantly (as did Schubert before him and Brahms afterwards) - harmonising a melody distinctly from that harmony most obviously implied by the melody. The C-flat as a flattened supertonic of B-flat implies a modulation, but to what? To the flattened supertonic itself? Nothing in the voice alone to be implies a gravitation towards F-flat/E, only the piano part does that. But is that why it was necessary for him to spell vocal and piano parts differently when they appear simultaneously? The C-flat can be 'resolved' onto a C-natural (as the non-flattened supertonic of the re-established B-flat in the following bar), but that's possible because of the intervening B-flat in the vocal part, which doesn't exist in the bass of the piano. If he'd spelled the vocal line in accord with the piano (say shifting enharmonically to A# in the second half of bar Cool, then he would have been left with an A# followed by a C-natural in bar 10, or a B# for the latter, but that would then have to resolve to a B-flat. I'm still not quite sure wholly what's going on in terms of necessary notation of particular harmonic features in these three bars, but can't really see how Schumann could have notated it other than how he did. So what is it about the melody/harmony that necessitates different spellings in voice and piano?
« Last Edit: 12:34:15, 18-09-2007 by Ian Pace » Logged

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Peter Grimes
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« Reply #36 on: 12:26:09, 18-09-2007 »

Someone around here must be able to tell me the correct harmonic description of the massive discord towards the end of Beethoven's Leonora Overture No. 3. It sounds to me like a flattened ninth, I think there are six notes in the chord.
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Evan Johnson
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« Reply #37 on: 12:32:46, 18-09-2007 »

That notwithstanding, I still regard a key serving as a dominant, which is reached via a secondary dominant, as some type of passing tonal centre - the secondary dominant is still a dominant of something. B/C-flat major is implied (in bar Cool as much as E major is - only with the modifications in bar 9 is a resolution into B/C-flat displaced.

But how can something be both a dominant and a tonal center?
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #38 on: 12:37:59, 18-09-2007 »

That notwithstanding, I still regard a key serving as a dominant, which is reached via a secondary dominant, as some type of passing tonal centre - the secondary dominant is still a dominant of something. B/C-flat major is implied (in bar Cool as much as E major is - only with the modifications in bar 9 is a resolution into B/C-flat displaced.

But how can something be both a dominant and a tonal center?
Well, an implied tonal centre can then become the dominant for another key, certainly. The secondary dominant wouldn't be a dominant of any type if there weren't some implied tonic.

There are those various Bartók works which seem to be in one key until the last bar reveals this as a dominant onto another tonic (or the opening scene of Don Giovanni, with Leporello's 'Notte e giorno faticar', works in a similar fashion, though here the addition of the seventh at the last moment is of course crucial). I'm happy in either case, though, to regard the initial sounding key as a tonal centre for a fair amount of the duration. Without that sense, the effect of confounding it by a resolution would be markedly less.
« Last Edit: 12:40:55, 18-09-2007 by Ian Pace » Logged

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time_is_now
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« Reply #39 on: 12:51:03, 18-09-2007 »

There are those various Bartók works which seem to be in one key until the last bar reveals this as a dominant onto another tonic
Can you give an example/s of this? I've a feeling I might know what you mean (although I'd interpret what's going on differently), but would be good to know which works you have in mind ...
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Chafing Dish
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« Reply #40 on: 12:51:32, 18-09-2007 »

But how can something be both a dominant and a tonal center?
Well, an implied tonal centre can then become the dominant for another key, certainly. The secondary dominant wouldn't be a dominant of any type if there weren't some implied tonic.
That is purely a terminological kerthiththle -- for me a secondary dominant, by definition, does not resolve to a tonal center but to a harmony on some other scale degree than tonic. Nobody's wrong here; just that I'd bristle at the term 'secondary tonic' that would have to be coined.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #41 on: 13:06:29, 18-09-2007 »

There are those various Bartók works which seem to be in one key until the last bar reveals this as a dominant onto another tonic
Can you give an example/s of this? I've a feeling I might know what you mean (although I'd interpret what's going on differently), but would be good to know which works you have in mind ...
I'll have a look - I'm thinking of various short piano pieces, including some from Mikrokosmos and For Children, but can't remember which ones (my piano teacher always used to bring them up in the context of never-ceasing arguments about tonality (and whether the presence of an over-arching tonal centre was a necessary condition for a good piece of music), from the point of view of 'the key of a piece is the key it ends in', which sort of accords with a Schenkerian view that I cannot wholly accept).
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Chafing Dish
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« Reply #42 on: 13:19:51, 18-09-2007 »

Someone around here must be able to tell me the correct harmonic description of the massive discord towards the end of Beethoven's Leonora Overture No. 3. It sounds to me like a flattened ninth, I think there are six notes in the chord.
If you mean the fff chord, it's a brazenly orchestrated dominant flat 9 -- the reason it's particularly spicy, I think, may be the octave doubling of the A-flat in the violins. So it's five notes, but the dissonant one is in danger of being outta tune (also double stops in the violas, which as you know end up being at least quadruple stops  Wink )
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Daniel
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« Reply #43 on: 13:20:43, 18-09-2007 »


for me a secondary dominant, by definition, does not resolve to a tonal center but to a harmony on some other scale degree than tonic.

..and then potentially on to the tonic, hence Ian's use of 'implied' tonic? (Just trying to keep up here..)
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Chafing Dish
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« Reply #44 on: 13:31:24, 18-09-2007 »

Just an invented term (hence scare quotes), I was referring to how the A# partially 'resolves' onto the C-flat, very important in terms of the harmonic implications, but on the other hand very transient, being on a weak beat and weak syllable, essentially subsumed into the broader line as part of a simple progression up to D-flat.
A passing tone is not a resolution -- this is a far too liberal, for me, use of the term "resolves."

Quote
I'm still not quite sure wholly what's going on in terms of necessary notation of particular harmonic features in these three bars, but can't really see how Schumann could have notated it other than how he did. So what is it about the melody/harmony that necessitates different spellings in voice and piano?
It also beautifully reflects the text implying an oblivious self-involved wanderer who is hearing what he wants out of what the flowers are saying to him... more pedestrian, though, I think running through all the alternative enharmonic spellings will show that Schumann adopted the most elegant spellings for each part, and it's not more puzzling than that, however:

Quote
But there I see this might be a case of what Schumann often did so brilliantly (as did Schubert before him and Brahms afterwards) - harmonising a melody distinctly from that harmony most obviously implied by the melody.
This can go further back to Bach's chorale melody harmonizations, though not to the degree of harmonic sophistication -- but you'd be surprised.

As an apropos example I recommend Der greise Kopf from Schiouxbairt's Winterreise.


and later:


It's so subtle that I originally assumed the two tunes were harmonized identically, but though the melodies are structurally equivalent for "Da glaubt' ich schon, ein Greis zu sein" and "Wer glaubt's, und meiner ward es nicht" -- the bass is completely different, and in fact they are nothing like the same! Two ways of exhibiting the idea that looks can be deceiving, once recounted as 'lived', the second time 'in hindsight'. Ain't music grand?
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