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ahinton
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« Reply #45 on: 13:41:52, 18-09-2007 » |
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the point of view of 'the key of a piece is the key it ends in', which sort of accords with a Schenkerian view that I cannot wholly accept.
You probably can't accept it because it is simply unacceptable to the extent that it won't work in practice except where it does - by which I mean that, by definition, such a concept would be incapable of accommodating the kind of "progressive tonality" (itself a far from suitable descriptor) found in symphonic works by, say, Mahler and Nielsen that begin in one key and end in another (and in this I am not particularly referring to works that end in the relative major or tonic major). Chopin's Second Ballade is commonly referred to as the F major Ballade but, since it ends in A minor, what "key" - under such a view - would it be "in"? Best, Alistair |
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #46 on: 13:46:05, 18-09-2007 » |
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Just an invented term (hence scare quotes), I was referring to how the A# partially 'resolves' onto the C-flat, very important in terms of the harmonic implications, but on the other hand very transient, being on a weak beat and weak syllable, essentially subsumed into the broader line as part of a simple progression up to D-flat. A passing tone is not a resolution -- this is a far too liberal, for me, use of the term "resolves." Not in general, no, but this is a very particular example, in which the vocal C-flat anticipates the (partial) resolution onto a root of B in bar 9, which, as we were discussing before, is quite intrinsic in enabling the augmented sixth to serve as a dominant. But the A# is a dissonant pitch, and the C-flat, heard enharmonically as if a B, causes it retrospectively to sound like a leading note, an impression confirmed by the following bar (regardless of whether we consider B/C-flat as existing as a tonal centre or not). I'm still not quite sure wholly what's going on in terms of necessary notation of particular harmonic features in these three bars, but can't really see how Schumann could have notated it other than how he did. So what is it about the melody/harmony that necessitates different spellings in voice and piano?
It also beautifully reflects the text implying an oblivious self-involved wanderer who is hearing what he wants out of what the flowers are saying to him... more pedestrian, though, I think running through all the alternative enharmonic spellings will show that Schumann adopted the most elegant spellings for each part, and it's not more puzzling than that, however: But there is something strange about a situation which forces two parts to be written in different (though enharmonically equivalent) keys, don't you think? |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #47 on: 13:53:14, 18-09-2007 » |
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the point of view of 'the key of a piece is the key it ends in', which sort of accords with a Schenkerian view that I cannot wholly accept.
You probably can't accept it because it is simply unacceptable to the extent that it won't work in practice except where it does - by which I mean that, by definition, such a concept would be incapable of accommodating the kind of "progressive tonality" (itself a far from suitable descriptor) found in symphonic works by, say, Mahler and Nielsen that begin in one key and end in another (and in this I am not particularly referring to works that end in the relative major or tonic major). Chopin's Second Ballade is commonly referred to as the F major Ballade but, since it ends in A minor, what "key" - under such a view - would it be "in"? Exactly. The need to conceptualise the totality of a piece as being 'in' a singular key seems to stem from a desire to impose some sense of unity and closure on a piece, which was very clearly and explicitly part of Schenker's motivation, and one reason why in particular he despised so much French music (another reason being his right-wing nationalism, which pops up throughout his writings) which was impossible to construct in this way. But such a model frequently seems barely sufficient even for the music he admired (which, as you know, included Chopin, though he was about the only non-German he took to), and denies many elements of the fragmentary, the structurally ambiguous, the ironic, the exploratory, and much else that was itself part and parcel of the Germanic tradition, not just the apparently decadent modern times that Schenker rejected in favour of some idealised past. |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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autoharp
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« Reply #48 on: 16:32:52, 21-09-2008 » |
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We never did discuss the Australian 6th, did we?
According to one source it consists of 4 b6 7 + #2. Presumably such as found in Till Eulenspiegel?
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autoharp
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« Reply #50 on: 18:48:38, 21-09-2008 » |
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time_is_now
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« Reply #51 on: 20:58:51, 21-09-2008 » |
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German - like dominant seventh
Italian - like dominant seventh without the fifth
French - pair of major thirds with a whole tone between them
Neapolitan sixth - simply a major sixth with, for its lowest pitch, the third degree of the scale beginning on the flattened supertonic. ie German - dominant, Italian - not quite as dominant as the Germans, French - avoid dominance at any price, Neapolitan - simple.  I do miss roslynmuse ...  |
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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martle
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« Reply #52 on: 21:57:17, 21-09-2008 » |
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Seconded!  |
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Green. Always green.
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ahinton
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« Reply #53 on: 22:09:05, 21-09-2008 » |
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No one seems yet to have mentioned the Hollywood sixth, as first forecast in the visionary Schönberg's Style and Idea and later epitomised in practice by its use in some of the more sentimentalitarian (to recycle a Sorabjism) of movie scores; then there's the Scottish sixth which, as a Scot myself, I know and recognise not so much as a musical concept but more as one half of that third double malt and which differs from the Scotch snap, which is what happens when two imbibers of the malt become a tad over-enthusiastic in their clinking together of glasses...
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martle
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« Reply #54 on: 22:12:00, 21-09-2008 » |
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the Hollywood sixth Indistinguishable from the Messiaen sixth, right? |
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Green. Always green.
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Robert Dahm
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« Reply #55 on: 01:23:49, 22-09-2008 » |
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I quite like the Mahler sixth... *groan*
I'm quite certain that nobody in Australia is aware of this 'Australian sixth'. But maybe that's because it seems so natural to us that it has no need for a label.
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Turfan Fragment
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« Reply #56 on: 03:42:32, 22-09-2008 » |
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Sorry, Robert, it simply isn't natural. Except in Gb Major, of course. But even there the B-natural is a C-flat. And the D-natural is actually an E-double-flat. You can't win, I tell you. |
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George Garnett
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« Reply #57 on: 08:21:32, 22-09-2008 » |
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ie German - dominant, Italian - not quite as dominant as the Germans, French - avoid dominance at any price, Neapolitan - simple. I do miss roslynmuse ... Major thirded . |
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autoharp
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« Reply #58 on: 12:03:05, 22-09-2008 » |
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then there's the Scottish sixth which, as a Scot myself, I know and recognise not so much as a musical concept but more as one half of that third double malt and which differs from the Scotch snap, which is what happens when two imbibers of the malt become a tad over-enthusiastic in their clinking together of glasses...
Oh, come on now Alistair! You know perfectly well that the Scottish sixth is a welcome and memorable cliche of the songs of Francis George Scott. |
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