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Author Topic: Should children be forced to learn to read music?  (Read 2546 times)
trained-pianist
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« Reply #15 on: 16:55:30, 08-08-2008 »

I am teaching children a lot and don't feel much wiser to talk about the subject.

I don't know why is it so hard now days to teach children notes. Is it the fact that children are not selected based on their abilities like it was in my childhood. I have children that become better at reading notes when they are in fourth or even fifth grade (or even later).
Then of course there is Suzuki method when they don't teach to read music. However, I don't like that method.
There is Hungarian way to learn by soflege (or movable do). For singers who are not going to be professional may be it is good.
My own stand is to push children to learn music notation even if it feels like one is banging the head against the wall.

If one doesn't start with music notation soon after starting the instrument one will be handicapped for life.

One definately is not going to be good sight reading in an orchestra. May be one can play piano jazz by ears, or traditional music. I know many violinists here who can not read and play traditional.

« Last Edit: 19:55:00, 08-08-2008 by trained-pianist » Logged
A
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« Reply #16 on: 16:55:56, 08-08-2008 »

I don't think children should be "forced" to do anything. But I don't see any reason on earth why learning music notation should not form part of a basic school music syllabus. To my mind the onus is on those who would remove it to explain why it's undesirable or unnecessary or whatever, in relation to other items which remain on the curriculum.

I agree completely Richard. When I did some music support work in primary schools I was told I wasn't to teach notation ( I was teaching the teachers who were basically unable to teach the Key Stage music curriculum)

I did anyway, and they loved it. There was no force involved , just a natural progression from games involving blobs, blue tac and a couple of lines... they learnt quite a lot even in the classroom environment, not the easiest place for this to be taught.

I have to say I have been lucky enough to be able to read music since I was six, and learnt it pretty much alongside reading ( as I guess most of you too!) I can't imagine a world in which I couldn't read music

A
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #17 on: 17:27:42, 08-08-2008 »

They are forced to read maps in Geography.  They are forced to read French in French.  They are forced to read figures in Economics. They're forced to read scales in Home Economics.  They're forced to read thermometers in Physics.
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-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Ron Dough
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« Reply #18 on: 17:54:50, 08-08-2008 »

This is probably a good place to make the admission (which may be surprising to some) that I'm not at all a fluent reader, to the point where I even wonder whether there is such a thing as musical dyslexia. Apart from my Grade V Theory, I'm almost entirely self-taught, and although I can just about cope with a vocal line sight unseen, I'm completely in awe of friends who can sight-read anything I set before them, no matter how complicated. I know exactly what all the notes are - I've been writing music since I was eleven, but that's a slow process which I can take at my own speed - but put a four part harmony in front of me at a keyboard, and there'll be total panic. Reading a score whilst the music is playing is nothing like as difficult, and my musical memory is pretty keen - in rehearsals, I'm usually off the score way ahead of most of the excellent readers, and  I often remember all the other parts as well as my own, even where there's really complex multi-layer stuff going on. Just the way my brain's wired, I suspect.

 Reading words has never been a problem, but I have the distinct impression that if anyone had tried to force me to read music without being aware that there might actually be a problem which makes it difficult for me (no matter how much I want it to happen) it might have been a somewhat tempestuous enterprise.
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rauschwerk
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« Reply #19 on: 18:06:04, 08-08-2008 »


Then of course there is Suzuki method when they don't teach to read music. However, I don't like that method.



Not true. It is true that no music reading method is prescribed by Suzuki, but any properly trained Suzuki teacher knows that notation must be taught when the child is ready. When I considered becoming a Suzuki piano teacher about 15 years ago, 75% of students on Juilliard School performing courses were Suzuki trained. I can't believe they would have been taken on if they couldn't read music!
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #20 on: 18:12:52, 08-08-2008 »

This is probably somehow tied in with the dethronement of 'classical' music from its previously central place on school (and university) curricula. This is arguably the primary literate musical tradition in the world, but there are many others which frequently do not rely fundamentally, or at all, upon a written musical text - most obviously popular music and a lot of jazz (though this should not be exaggerated in the case of the latter, bearing in mind the importance of the sheet music industry which was at least linked in the earlier years of jazz). So, the argument goes, if many of the people who produce the music that seems to be considered most relevant to younger people (and certainly if listening figures are anything to go by, is the music they themselves find most relevant to their lives) do not (and cannot) read music, why is it such an important skill? One might say that learning to appreciate, analyse, understand music is a different skill (but highly valuable in its own right) to writing and performing it - and I would definitely agree with that - but then one could point to a wide range of rock and jazz journalists and critics (and a number of academics) who themselves can't read music.

And one might lead on from this to arguing that understanding music's social context, its cultural meanings, and so on (which are issues that in one form or another underly a lot of sub-cultural musical identifications, which are certainly very potent issues for teenagers), is more important than grasping the technical minutiae. I wouldn't disagree there at all, though would argue that some tools to understand the latter help to focus better study of the latter. With all of this in mind, I'm not sure if I could make a strong case for the necessity of reading music, and indeed can see how in some cases an extra-literate approach has its own individual benefits, but I can't see that there could really be any palpable harm done by making it a key part of the syllabus.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #21 on: 19:07:39, 08-08-2008 »

most obviously popular music and a lot of jazz (though this should not be exaggerated in the case of the latter, bearing in mind the importance of the sheet music industry which was at least linked in the earlier years of jazz).

I was interested by that comment, Ian.  Do you think this might be because a notational system with its roots in maintaining the accuracy of plainchant throughout the Catholic world  (nb in the Orthodox Church they still sing chant from neumes - not only in Russia, but even as far as Syria and Ethiopia) and then pressed into the service of "classical" music...  is actually a rather clumsy and unsuitable tool for notating jazz anyhow?

For example, "printed" jazz will often smooth swung rhythms to appear as straight crotchets and minims etc...  attempts to notate the "real" sound usually involve a morass of tied-over semi-quavers, and even then they're not actually what's played (although they are closer).

Those of us who learned non-keyboard instruments often began with that beloved melody of the "Tune-A-Day" books, "Little F & G march" (or its cousin "Little D & E March", while Ollie probably learned "Little Gb and Ab March").  Although those weary honking crotchets must be the bane of every parent,  at least they were easy to learn - you could even write down your own if you felt so inclined.  But suppose some junior jazbo is more drawn to a simple "standard" by Miles or Mingus?  The page blackens with ink instantly, yet the music is essentially as simple and melodic as anything written by Haydn....

Ron, I entirely sympathise - I was forced to sightsing from an early age as a boy treble, by some sadistic and sarcastic choirmaster of the name of Richard Hickox...   doing it right was the way to avoid rehearsal-time humiliation...
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Baz
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« Reply #22 on: 19:49:43, 08-08-2008 »

The question seems to imply that we all agree what "Music" is (or should be). If by "Music" a particularly eccentric person such as myself may suggest a meaning such as "all surviving music of the past that now exists in written form" (thinking of all the music of Gregory the Great through the Middles Ages, the wonderful sacred and secular music of Machaut through to Josquin, the magnificent works of Monteverdi through to Bach, the innovatory symphonic and chamber music of Haydn and Mozart through to Beethoven, Schubert and Brahms, or the ground-breaking compositions of Wagner through to Schoenberg and Webern, etc. etc. etc...............) surely the question should be the opposite: "How can children not be encouraged to read music?" Forceful reading as such should not be an element for studying musical sources any more than it is for the study of literary or scientific sources - it should simply be a matter of normality in the acquisition of a basic visual and mental skill that enables an understanding of the written text.

"Music" is not (and has never been) merely a "performing art", and even if it had been those who choose to perform it ought (rationally speaking) to be equipped with a fundamental capability of reading and understanding the directions that have carefully been given by the person who composed it.

Regrettably many of our current "educators" now feel that Music is so tangential (or even recreational) as an educational pursuit that its study can be honed down to a few "bargain basement" elements that merely create a physical awareness rather than a serious study. Some of this nonsense thinking is even creeping into Further and Higher Educational thinking too - so we may yet have felt only the thin end of the wedge I fear.

Baz
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richard barrett
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« Reply #23 on: 21:17:07, 08-08-2008 »

My idea of "what music is" is clearly rather different from Mr Iron's, since a great deal of the music I concern myself with doesn't involve notation, but I do agree that the present issue is yet another symptom of the downgrading of music as such into something for consumption rather than participation, and for this reason alone (if there were no others, which there are) I would be opposed to it. I am not fooled for one moment by talk about "inclusiveness" - that is indeed a laudable aim but it is obviously not the actual aim here, nor, I dare say, does it stand much chance of being achieved.
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #24 on: 21:32:11, 08-08-2008 »

I can work out rhythm, and I can pick out a simple melody on a recorder or piano, but I have been completely awestruck all my life by the ability to read pitch and harmony. 

Incidentally, the fact I have a clue about musical notation is not due to my school, but to the eccentric piano teacher (a distant and physically ailing relative of Stanford who appeared to be unaware of any music written later than Brahms) to whom my mother sent me on Saturday afternoons.

Yes, pupils should be given the opportunity to find out how musical notation works.  If they don't get it, then they should not be cast into the outer darkness, but they may find it a great opening.
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A
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« Reply #25 on: 21:40:09, 08-08-2008 »

My idea of "what music is" is clearly rather different from Mr Iron's, since a great deal of the music I concern myself with doesn't involve notation,

A serious question here Richard. I always think that the reason for notation is so that a performance of the composer's work would be the same or at least similar to how it was intended by the said composer. If there is no notation , how does a performer , or group of performers know how the composer wished it to sound in say 10 years or so? I always understood that this was the main reason for notation that was decipherable by all ... whatever the nationality too.

A
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #26 on: 21:47:24, 08-08-2008 »

A and Baz, you are both limiting your definitions of 'music' to a Western classical tradition, founded upon the notion of the 'work' (as being the object of paramount importance, much more so than particular performances, improvisations, forms of communal music-making, etc) - actually a relatively recent phenomenon even within the classical tradition. There's very much more to music than that.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
richard barrett
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« Reply #27 on: 21:53:00, 08-08-2008 »

If there is no notation , how does a performer , or group of performers know how the composer wished it to sound in say 10 years or so?

I was talking about electronic music, of the kind that doesn't require performance, and free improvisation, where there's no "work" to be played again in 10 years or whatever. The most recent thing I've completed (a week or so ago) was a 46-minute electronic piece co-composed by Paul Obermayer and myself, which is intended to reach the outside world only in the form of a CD release, and in the making of which no notation was used, though as a compositional structure it's as complexly interwoven as anything one could do with notation. There are some things in music which are only achievable through notation, others to which "thinking in notation" is more an obstacle than a help. My point though was that even so, I don't see the point in excluding musical notation from education, certainly at GCSE level.
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #28 on: 22:17:55, 08-08-2008 »

limiting your definitions of 'music' to  the notion of the 'work' (as being the object of paramount importance, much more so than particular performances, improvisations, forms of communal music-making, etc) -

I feel weary at having to compare performances.  That is why I probably think that the typical work of art is the novel, where there is no performer to come between me and the work. I realise that is a rather late, and probably protestant, outlook.

(Another late at night, probably ill conceived post.  Ignore if you want.)
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
A
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« Reply #29 on: 22:19:25, 08-08-2008 »

Thank you for that Richard, that is interesting. I have to say I hadn't thought of a work being performed onto cd only... technology is changing the way things are perceived I can see that.

The small amount of improvisation I did with primary children using graphic notation that I gave them and then that they made up themselves was a most interesting experiment for all concerned, and as you say, notation in the traditional way would have got in the way and slowed them down considerably.

I do however agree that traditional notation should be taught and learnt in order for the choice to be made by the individual as to how music will 'take them'.

A
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