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Author Topic: Should children be forced to learn to read music?  (Read 2546 times)
Ian Pace
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« Reply #30 on: 22:23:58, 08-08-2008 »

Reiner, quickly in response to your point - various people have suggested that Western notation is peculiarly inept at conveying the myriad range of inflections of rhythm (and pitch) which whilst often subtle in themselves, are utterly fundamental to the character of a lot of music (including plenty of Western classical music). That's one reason why I think we should be cautious about seeing a 'work' embodied primarily though a score. Rather like writing a language down phonetically - if one learned it purely that way, a native speaker would instantly be able to tell.

Don, it's not necessarily about comparing performances; can equally be about primarily wanting to hear a particular performer rather than particular 'works'.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
MabelJane
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« Reply #31 on: 22:26:32, 08-08-2008 »

I am ashamed to say that I often don't give proper music-teaching as much time as I'd like to at school (6-8 year olds). The peripatetic music-teaching lady (she goes by the glorious title of vocal animateur, if I've spelled it right!) who occasionally visits to advise class teachers and give demonstration lessons, has started my class off with the cat, monkey, cow system for learning to read rhythm, ie cat = crotchet, monkey = pair of quavers and co-ow = a minim.

This works really well, starting with the symbols of a solid circle for cat, 2 vertical lines for monkey and an open circle for cow. I showed the children how similar these symbols are to the crotchet, quavers and minim and they picked it up in no time, writing 4 beats worth of "music" on whiteboards. We combined whiteboards in a row the other day and clapped the new "tunes" we'd created. They loved it. Even the low achievers could do it, with help. And they were very excited when I wore my musically notated socks recently - "You've got cats and cows and monkeys on your socks!"

The children have been introduced to the sol-fa system by means of games with Mr Doh at the bottom of a block of flats (with hand gesture to bottom), Mrs Sol at no.5 (hand gesture to forehead) etc but I'm not very confident at this. She has linked this to a colour-coded scale of C so the children see how the notes perch on the lines or in between. I really ought to return to this as it can now be shown on the big interactive whiteboard but I have to confess I have not found the time to do so - we have so much pressure on us to raise our reading and writing and maths levels, it's been squeezed out. Embarrassed

In answer to the title of this thread, No, but they should be encouraged to learn to read music. Smiley
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Baz
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« Reply #32 on: 22:33:14, 08-08-2008 »

A and Baz, you are both limiting your definitions of 'music' to a Western classical tradition, founded upon the notion of the 'work' (as being the object of paramount importance, much more so than particular performances, improvisations, forms of communal music-making, etc) - actually a relatively recent phenomenon even within the classical tradition. There's very much more to music than that.

You have made some statements here Ian that are both incorrect and presumptive, and additionally sidestep the main point that I was making. The presumption was that I viewed "music" as being limited to the Western Classical tradition. This is incorrect, since you well know that I have also championed the status (and study) of World Music, and (more saliently) Jazz and Popular Music. So that statement is incorrect.

All my posting did was to offer a reminder that, as a Western nation that has the most wonderful heritage of Western music to celebrate, the notion that it is now suddenly "OK" or somehow "normal" or "acceptable" for our children NOT to be encouraged to learn the simple basis of reading it perpetrates the most barbarous and heinous cultural crime: it deliberately cuts them off from this tradition as if it no longer matters.

This is (surely?) unacceptable!

Baz
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #33 on: 22:40:27, 08-08-2008 »

I like the way you describe teaching rhythm and I also don't can not get solfa system. I can not associate notes with gestures. To aquire this skills for me will take as long as normal note learning and not faster. May be it works for some teachers.

I like Don Basilio point. Each performer is different.

MJ, they demand too much from teachers and your priority is teaching them to read and to write.

For children that take individual lessons it is very important to aquire skills of reading music as soon as possible. They need it. Later on they can move to other things, but the basic skills are important.
Our civilization requires one to be able to write and read, and in music education to read music. Later musicians branch to different kind of music depending on their interest.
If one is to have any possibility of professional career one has to know the notes.
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Baz
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« Reply #34 on: 22:50:08, 08-08-2008 »

My idea of "what music is" is clearly rather different from Mr Iron's, since a great deal of the music I concern myself with doesn't involve notation, but I do agree that the present issue is yet another symptom of the downgrading of music as such into something for consumption rather than participation, and for this reason alone (if there were no others, which there are) I would be opposed to it. I am not fooled for one moment by talk about "inclusiveness" - that is indeed a laudable aim but it is obviously not the actual aim here, nor, I dare say, does it stand much chance of being achieved.

I don't think we differ as much as you fear Richard. For music that doesn't involve notation the "notational" aspect becomes merely tangential, if not irrelevant. But (and I know you must agree) for that enormous quantity of music for which notation DOES matter, understanding it matters a lot! Through an understanding of the notation readers approach the composer's mind, his thinking, his rationale, his structure, his intentions. From that awareness they can begin to understand issues of interpretation and performance practice.

Eliminating the development of this mental equipment at the very age when children are most receptive to develop it (as they are concurrently doing with written and spoken language) is merely throwing in the towel and telling them that the heritage encoded in over a thousand years of written notations by composers is now life-expired. If anybody believes that then they are likely to believe that the world will suddenly end tomorrow morning at precisely 7.00am.

Baz
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MabelJane
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« Reply #35 on: 22:53:30, 08-08-2008 »

Quote from: trained-pianist link=topic=3303.msg127088#msg127088  I can not associate notes with gestures.

[/quote

The gestures are very simple and are to indicate pitch - they help the children to associate the low notes with a low hand position etc.
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #36 on: 23:00:16, 08-08-2008 »

I understand that point. THey used to show us up, down, next to each other, but in Hungarian system they have special signals for each note (do, re, mi, fa) I usually tell my students to go to singing teachers who prepare their ears because 1. I don't want to do it individually 2. I don't like to do that. I feel group lessons are better for this sort of thing.
May be I am not right, I don't know.

Before they begin lessons children should be ready (or prepared by ear training), but in reality it doesn't happen.
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #37 on: 23:15:05, 08-08-2008 »

I could talk here about the tradition of a people like, for example, the Aka, who sing complex polyphony that is unnotated at both the point of composition and performance (Bruno Nettl goes into some depth about the distinctions between different musical cultures in his seminal volume on Ethnomusicology) but I think that it's clear that what is taking the place of what most universities would claim are 'key skills' [groan] for music degrees are not supra-notational musics but are rather easy (for the students) solutions to the problems of passing exams. As a musical culture, we are primarily geared towards notation. Without notation, much (but not exclusively all) of our music would be unthinkable. We are not the Aka and I don't see a new way of making music on the horizon. We're just kidding ourselves.
Notation is our prison and as soon as we learn the rules, the sooner we can put up a poster of Rita Hayworth.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #38 on: 23:53:43, 08-08-2008 »

As a musical culture, we are primarily geared towards notation. Without notation, much (but not exclusively all) of our music would be unthinkable.
Is that really true, though? For many people, 'our' music is the rich and diverse popular musical tradition of the English-speaking world, most of which does not require notation at all.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #39 on: 00:01:42, 09-08-2008 »

Quote
Notation is our prison and as soon as we learn the rules, the sooner we can put up a poster of Rita Hayworth.


Music was born free, but everywhere it is in chains of barred semiquavers...
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Philidor
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« Reply #40 on: 00:06:20, 09-08-2008 »

All my posting did was to offer a reminder that, as a Western nation that has the most wonderful heritage of Western music to celebrate, the notion that it is now suddenly "OK" or somehow "normal" or "acceptable" for our children NOT to be encouraged to learn the simple basis of reading it perpetrates the most barbarous and heinous cultural crime: it deliberately cuts them off from this tradition as if it no longer matters.

This is (surely?) unacceptable!

Baz

One difficulty with your view - which I strongly agree with - is its extreme unfashionability. The right hate Enlightenment values because they really just want the schools to produce factory fodder. Learning to read music is a nancy boy activity - kids should be out on the rugger field learning to compete goddamnit! - and a waste of time. Besides, although they (the right) don't understand Western culture they have a vague notion of the Enlightenment having been subversive - the French Revolution and all that subversive guff about the 'rights of man' - so, consequently, knowledge of it should be discouraged.

The left, on the other hand, is paralysed by multiculturalism, relativism, guilt about Western imperialism and French philosophy books. As Western culture produced imperialism ergo there must be something wrong with it (Western culture) so children must be shielded from ideas contained within it.

Indeed, they must be told that no culture is 'superior' to another, only 'different.' If little Johnny raises his hand and says: 'Please Miss does that mean that a culture which produces female circumcision is neither superior nor inferior to one which produces JS Bach?' he must be made to do finger painting.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #41 on: 00:16:04, 09-08-2008 »

The left, on the other hand, is paralysed by multiculturalism, relativism, guilt about Western imperialism and French philosophy books. As Western culture produced imperialism ergo there must be something wrong with it (Western culture) so children must be shielded from ideas contained within it.
Not all of 'the left' think that way. However, if it's relatively widely accepted that culture in the Third Reich was inextricably tied into, and complicit with, the wider social and political system, and the same was true in the Soviet Union, why might it not equally be likely of the Western imperialist nations?
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
richard barrett
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« Reply #42 on: 00:23:03, 09-08-2008 »

The "forced" in the title is a bit unfortunate of course. But another way of looking at the whole question is, with the shift of musical education towards the "vernacular", what is the point in teaching stuff at schools that the pupils already know about, because they're constantly surrounded by it? What's the difference in this context between an ill-defined concept of "relevance" and the pressure to conform to a passive-consumption culture which comes from both commercial and political sectors? Sorry to bang on about this repeatedly, but the point is that learning about musical notation and what it's for and the tradition it embodies is interesting and enlightening and inspiring, at least if it isn't presented in an apologetic and unenthusiastic way, and as far as I'm concerned this makes it "relevant". If school students don't find it interesting they don't have to take a GCSE in it, do they?
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richard barrett
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« Reply #43 on: 00:32:03, 09-08-2008 »

The left, on the other hand, is paralysed by multiculturalism, relativism, guilt about Western imperialism and French philosophy books. As Western culture produced imperialism ergo there must be something wrong with it (Western culture) so children must be shielded from ideas contained within it.
I don't really know who you mean by "the left" in this context, but the attitude you mention is pretty mindless, in tarring the whole of "Western culture" with the same imperialist brush. Marx was unstinting in his praise of the benefits to humanity that capitalism brought with it. The fact that they are outweighed by the inequalities and brutalities it also brings with it ought not to diminish those achievements. And
does that mean that a culture which produces female circumcision is neither superior nor inferior to one which produces JS Bach?'
could easily be rephrased as "does that mean a culture which possesses enough nuclear weapons to annihilate the human race is neither superior nor inferior to one which produced the Alhambra?" What is either question supposed to prove?
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #44 on: 00:35:00, 09-08-2008 »

Perhaps the whole question pales into insignificance when you take into account the numbers who leave school nowadays simply unable to read or write, and even if they can manage the latter, it's often only with difficulty.
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