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Author Topic: Should children be forced to learn to read music?  (Read 2546 times)
pim_derks
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« Reply #90 on: 18:10:35, 09-08-2008 »

As regards prison populations (...) I believe the USA has the most
Indeed - the nation whose constitution enshrines Enlightenment values more explicitly than any other.

I think Member Barrett makes a good point here!
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #91 on: 18:38:48, 09-08-2008 »

The English classic of the Enlightenment is probably Gibbon's Decline and Fall.  With due respect to the broad mindedness and tolerance Enlightenment values can bring, Gibbon manages to be both sexist, racist and homophobic* in his admiration for Manly Roman Virtue against decadent Christianity which gave value to women and slaves.

* My fave quote from Gibbon is his footnote to his disapproval of Hadrian's unmanly love for Antinous.  "Yet we may remark that of the first fourteen emperors, Claudius was the only one whose taste in love was entirely correct."

I think you are touching on some important stuff, Phil, but you are sploshing about generalizations like they are going out of fashion. There are all sorts of nuances in cultures and political sympathies.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #92 on: 19:34:17, 09-08-2008 »

If I may be Devil's Advocate for a moment, what precisely are the advantages of being able to read music?
Well, it makes playing music more easy, don't you think so, P-G? Wink
Only certain kinds of music.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #93 on: 19:43:15, 09-08-2008 »

Of course many well-known and "successful" musicians have done what they do without learning to read music, but I don't see what that's supposed to prove - particularly in the oft-cited case of Paul McCartney, whose woeful attempts to "write" orchestral and choral music with the assistance of someone who can deal with the dots would seem to indicate, if anything, that it might have been a good idea for him to have had a few lessons in notation at some point.
Couldn't it equally be taken to indicate that there's a problem of social prestige which leads him to feel he needs to prove himself as a 'classical' composer?

I'm not trying to be flippant here, and I'm aware of the dangers of relativism attendant on the kind of position I'm taking. I don't believe a Beatles song is as great an achievement of the human mind as a Beethoven symphony, but I do believe that there are different kinds of competence, and that competence in understanding or indeed imitating a Beatles song is better than incompetence at understanding or imitating a Beethoven symphony.

To answer the question of the thread title more directly, I'd say that 'forcing' children to learn to read Western classical music notation is no more likely to turn them into musicians than the current system of foreign language teaching in schools succeeds in turning students into adults who are competent at communicating in a foreign language. I don't believe the teaching of music notation should be abolished - mainly because I don't believe the lack of any skill is better than the possession of it - but I do believe that encouraging music notation as a supposed means of access to 'the great classical repertoire' is as likely to alienate students from that repertoire as it is to involve them in it, and I do strongly believe that more imaginative consideration needs to be given to the question of what skills are taught, what skills are privileged, and how much room is given for students to learn a different set of skills if for any reason that suits them better (which is emphatically not the same as saying that it's fine to give them spurious qualifications which require them to learn no skills at all).
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
trained-pianist
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« Reply #94 on: 19:45:52, 09-08-2008 »

Some one has to take the bait and talk about pluses in reading music.
I can try to start with advantages in reading music.

A. If one is an amature:

1. One can play favourite pieces of music
2. One can learn new pieces of music with good harmonies
3. One can participate in amature orchestras and ensembles
4. One can sing in a chorus

Ability to read disciplines one's mind and helps to develop musical ears



B It one decides to be professional the ability to read is a must.

Without it one can not be neither soloist, nor accompanist, nor orchestra player.

One cannot learn music from listening to CD or from some body who will play the part to him.

Ability to sight read well is a big asset in professional life, no question about it. If one postponds learning how to read too long one will have difficulties reading quickly.

I have to say that traditional musicians here resist putting their tunes on paper. They don't want to cut different variations of the tunes because many tunes are similar.
« Last Edit: 19:48:56, 09-08-2008 by trained-pianist » Logged
increpatio
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« Reply #95 on: 19:59:21, 09-08-2008 »

With regards to the lamenting of the loss of cultural knowledge of youth today, I feel that it might be worth pointing out that the difference might as well be one of difference, as much as one of the relative size of knowledge.  Kids who've been brought up on Warner Brothers cartoons aren't going to know too much about classical mythology, but they will come into adulthood, their minds saturated with a different kind of mythology.  I'm inclined to think that my phase of obsession with dinosaurs in my younger years would have been, were I born fifty or so years ago, a mythological phase instead.  The traditional body of cultural 'context' is falling apart a little in some ways (was it ever stable in the first place?), but more attention I think must be paid to what students know and how to work with that as opposed to what they do not know that other people who are charged with teaching them think that they should already know.

(I do agree with much of what has been said before on this thread, but mainly wish to counter some of the sentiment that's been expressed)
« Last Edit: 20:02:00, 09-08-2008 by increpatio » Logged

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Kittybriton
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Thank you for the music ...


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« Reply #96 on: 22:36:04, 09-08-2008 »

Some one has to take the bait and talk about pluses in reading music.
I can try to start with advantages in reading music.

A. If one is an amature:

1. One can play favourite pieces of music
2. One can learn new pieces of music with good harmonies
3. One can participate in amature orchestras and ensembles
4. One can sing in a chorus

Ability to read disciplines one's mind and helps to develop musical ears



B It one decides to be professional the ability to read is a must.

Without it one can not be neither soloist, nor accompanist, nor orchestra player.

One cannot learn music from listening to CD or from some body who will play the part to him.

Ability to sight read well is a big asset in professional life, no question about it. If one postponds learning how to read too long one will have difficulties reading quickly.

I have to say that traditional musicians here resist putting their tunes on paper. They don't want to cut different variations of the tunes because many tunes are similar.


2A seems particularly to the point in my opinion, as a simile for broadening the understanding of the whole field of music in the same way that the best (literary) writers are also voracious readers.
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #97 on: 01:56:27, 10-08-2008 »

I'd say that 'forcing' children to learn to read Western classical music notation is no more likely to turn them into musicians than the current system of foreign language teaching in schools succeeds in turning students into adults who are competent at communicating in a foreign language.

That's a rather vocational approach to the matter, surely?  Cool
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #98 on: 09:48:59, 10-08-2008 »

increpatio,
 It is difficult to live through change of culture. I thought that one can not grow without Mark Twain and other classics of my youth. My education was "modern" with no Latin or Greek for masses and with a lot of time for communist ideology. I went through political correctness before it came here. Now I see that there is negation of political correctness too, greed and selfishness is good again and the double talk came to the end for now. I did not like the mass ideology then and don't like it now and I am not sure what is better.


 
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pim_derks
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« Reply #99 on: 10:03:58, 10-08-2008 »

I wonder just how much of this general ignorance can be laid at the feet of the proliferation of TV stations leading to ghettoisation of material, and the availability of cheap televisions, so that should a child wish to see cartoons all his waking hours, it's perfectly possible for him to stay apart from the rest of the family and soak up escapist animation, for example. When there were far fewer stations and one set in the house, the family would tend to watch together, and the range of material viewed would cover many more subjects. Now that the media feed on themselves, kids can tell you all about Big Brother, Buffy, or Duffy without having the faintest idea about the planet they inhabit. What happens in East Enders has much more impact on their world than what is happening in Eastern Europe.

All very true, Ron. Technology really does change society, more than religion and politics do. What's happening in Eastern Europe might not interest them, but I can say the same about most of the people who actually live there. I recently found out that in Croatia, corruption and war crimes are almost absent from the media because people only want to know things about popstars. The most important thing to remember here is that in Croatia, the media are largely being controlled by Western media companies.

Here's something about the situation in Russia:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/27/world/europe/27tabloids.html?pagewanted=print

“If we cover high culture, people will run away. Leo Tolstoy, we won’t come close to.” Sad

This is also interesting (warning: some pictures may be disturbing):

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/26/world/middleeast/26censor.html?th&emc=th

It's all so depressing... Sad
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #100 on: 10:14:31, 10-08-2008 »

So has commercial pop culture replaced religion as the opiate of the people?
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pim_derks
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« Reply #101 on: 10:22:39, 10-08-2008 »

So has commercial pop culture replaced religion as the opiate of the people?

I believe Allan Bloom said the same thing in The Closing of the American Mind.

I don't know if it's true, but commercial pop culture is everywhere nowadays. Sad
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richard barrett
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« Reply #102 on: 10:28:45, 10-08-2008 »

Technology really does change society, more than religion and politics do.

Yes it does, but Ron was talking about television, which has been around for quite a while now: what has changed is the way it's used by those who make the programming decisions, and this I would say is politics.

So has commercial pop culture replaced religion as the opiate of the people?

It's worth once again putting this phrase in its context:
Quote from: Karl Marx
The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion. Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.

In other words, part of the power and attraction of religion is that it offers (illusory) redemption from the "vale of tears". Commercial culture doesn't pretend to do that, and in a way embodies "opium" in a much purer form. A passage in a novel by Will Self (who should know) sticks in my mind in this context: addicts don't take heroin to "get high", they take it to feel normal. Pop culture does the same thing in a sense, giving people the illusion of participating in a way of life they are actually excluded from. I should emphasise that I'm not talking about the entirety of what goes under the name of pop culture here - clearly there are many people of great talent, insight and integrity working in it, and once more it's the (political!) way their work is used which is the problem.
« Last Edit: 10:30:38, 10-08-2008 by richard barrett » Logged
Ian Pace
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« Reply #103 on: 10:37:24, 10-08-2008 »

Technology really does change society, more than religion and politics do.

Yes it does, but Ron was talking about television, which has been around for quite a while now: what has changed is the way it's used by those who make the programming decisions, and this I would say is politics.
Well, broadcasting technology changed quite significantly around 20 years ago with the advent of cable and satellite. This enabled a new level of international broadcasting, or rather a newly globalised broadcasting, which the likes of Murdoch of course exploited to the maximum. And the Reithian ideals behind national terrestrial non-commercial broadcasting had to compete with this vast new range of channels. No longer can the BBC simply broadcast what they think is best (or, a cynic might say, what they think is 'good for people' - and there is some of that in the Reithian ethos) safe in the knowledge that people are still likely to watch it - nowadays they are much more likely to flick through another 50 channels, most of which aim much more to give the type of self-gratification that many viewers want. Institutions like the BBC have to compete with this.

But technology is not separate from politics, almost ever, and technological development is frequently steered by wider forces (not least the defence industry).
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
pim_derks
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« Reply #104 on: 10:45:00, 10-08-2008 »

Technology really does change society, more than religion and politics do.

Yes it does, but Ron was talking about television, which has been around for quite a while now: what has changed is the way it's used by those who make the programming decisions, and this I would say is politics.

When I was a child there were only two television networks in the Netherlands. Now there are many more. Technnology made it possible to create more networks, politics made it possible for those networks to receive a license.
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