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Author Topic: Music in Higher Education  (Read 1418 times)
Mary Chambers
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« on: 12:39:57, 09-09-2008 »

I rather feel that universities aren't the best places for creative people, but of course one has to earn a living somehow. I wonder how Martle feels about it?
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martle
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« Reply #1 on: 12:43:19, 09-09-2008 »

Mary, martle feels every sympathy with Richard. But I don't agree that universities are necessarily bad places for creative people. Often they seem to do everything in their power to seem as if they are, but there is always potential for good work - even in today's bureacratic and penny-pinching times.
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Green. Always green.
trained-pianist
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« Reply #2 on: 12:59:47, 09-09-2008 »

I have some one here whose academic year just began.
This is the first week and we are both in mourning.
Everything Mr Dr Prof Richard Barrett (Ph.D) said is applicable here as well:
univesities being run like businesses, students are not as good as they used to be, classes is too big, someone resigned unexpectedly and some prof has to be hired for chairmanship position, but he only used the offer from this University to improve his situation in the old University.

There are too many meetings, too much preparation and no time to do your own research.

I can go on like that, but I am trying to restrain my self.

All I can tell you people is that if I am going to come to this world again I am not going to go in Academia myself and I will try to persuate my partner not to go.

On the other hand University is the best environment to meet interesting people, the work with students is rewarding and if one gets good research results one is happy at least for a while.


The verdict: Universities are not perfect places to be, but it is all right place still for the time being.

« Last Edit: 13:14:34, 09-09-2008 by trained-pianist » Logged
Ian Pace
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« Reply #3 on: 13:47:42, 09-09-2008 »

The very nature of higher education is changing rapidly in many ways. In earlier times, there was a certain default deference towards lecturers and professors, a tacit agreement with the notion that they knew what 'was best' for students to learn, and a less intensive workload to allow plenty of time to pursue one's research. Nowadays, with the expansion of higher education (and let's bear in mind that it wasn't until around the 1960s that hardly anyone other than those from very privileged backgrounds were likely to be able to go into higher education at all, in much of Europe) and the emergence of a new generation of students, there are different demands, and a new level of competition between institutions to attract them. Whilst one side of me would like to go back to the old ways, I'd find it hard to make a concrete case for a system where the students' views and desires are little taken into account. And this nowadays seems to take the form of demands for more job-prospect/skills-focused learning, a demand for 'relevance', and in terms of music, a relative dethroning of the position that early music and new music in particular, and even 'classical' music in general, occupied within university curricula. It takes a lot of adjustment for those of us who had a more traditional university education to adapt to this new situation, which isn't likely to change. But I do wonder if this isn't some form of revisiting of the debates of the 1960s, when in a similar manner students expressed their discontent with traditional teaching and the like?

That said, there are many very real problems in contemporary academia, most obviously to do with funding, but also - especially in music (often a little amateurish in British universities) - a devaluing of serious scholarship, with some gaining research degrees and publications for producing dressed-up journalism or material more noteworthy for its rhetoric than its research.
« Last Edit: 13:54:42, 09-09-2008 by Ian Pace » Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
richard barrett
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« Reply #4 on: 13:57:46, 09-09-2008 »

Some people appear not to recognise the concept of a personal matter when it happens to share some of its subject matter with one of their own obsessions.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #5 on: 14:04:01, 09-09-2008 »

Of course this is a personal matter (it is for me, too, as I also work in academia), but when there are lots of voices saying all that's wrong with academia today, why does a different view become a 'personal obsession' - or is that just a rhetorical term for 'a view that does not agree with mine'?
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
richard barrett
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« Reply #6 on: 14:09:38, 09-09-2008 »

There is no question of agreement or disagreement but of a personal decision I happen to be trying to make, and trying to discuss with the otherwise very supportive people here. I thought that was what this thread was for, not for being lectured at about the history of higher education. Why don't you just crawl back under your stone.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #7 on: 14:21:02, 09-09-2008 »

Seeing your tendency to resort to ad hominem attacks against those (by no means just me) who don't just tell you what you want to hear, I'm not entirely surprised that you don't feel at home in academia.

I've had plenty of doubts about staying in academia during the 5 years or so during which I've been involved in it. But it's a privilege, not just a luxury, and I feel that if I cannot make a compelling case for how things should be different (and then try and play some small part in bringing that situation about), then the onus is on me or anyone else to adapt to new circumstances. It's probably very hard, though, for those numerous people in academia who see the teaching as nothing more than a way of subsidising their research.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
richard barrett
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« Reply #8 on: 14:23:54, 09-09-2008 »

your tendency to resort to ad hominem attacks

How about this then: Go to hell, you repellent creature. You simply have no idea how real people feel, do you?
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #9 on: 14:29:31, 09-09-2008 »

Is that the best you can do? Do you not think I and many others might have also faced the types of things that are bothering you at the moment, but might have arrived at other conclusions?
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
richard barrett
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« Reply #10 on: 14:30:59, 09-09-2008 »

Yes, that is the best I can do. As I say, you have no idea. Let me put it like this: people generally post on this thread because they're feeling put upon by something or other and what they generally receive is sympathy and helpful comments, not a paragraph on why you happen to think differently. I don't think I have ever come across anyone anywhere who is so intent on dressing up his total self-obsession as some kind of objective commitment to his fellow humans as you are.
« Last Edit: 14:34:33, 09-09-2008 by richard barrett » Logged
Ruby2
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« Reply #11 on: 14:32:29, 09-09-2008 »

Seeing your tendency to resort to ad hominem attacks against those (by no means just me) who don't just tell you what you want to hear, I'm not entirely surprised that you don't feel at home in academia.

I've had plenty of doubts about staying in academia during the 5 years or so during which I've been involved in it. But it's a privilege, not just a luxury, and I feel that if I cannot make a compelling case for how things should be different (and then try and play some small part in bringing that situation about), then the onus is on me or anyone else to adapt to new circumstances. It's probably very hard, though, for those numerous people in academia who see the teaching as nothing more than a way of subsidising their research.
I think it's far more straightforward than that - some people are suited to some jobs and some to others and like everyone has said, if you don't like a job you get a different one.  I've done a little classroom training and hated it - my voice is quite soft so I was perpetually straining it trying to be loud enough, so now I write the material instead, which I'm better at and prefer.

And this thread is for being supportive and empathetic, surely?  Yes we all have problems but we all need a rant sometimes too.
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"Two wrongs don't make a right.  But three rights do make a left." - Rohan Candappa
increpatio
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« Reply #12 on: 14:33:56, 09-09-2008 »

Calm down gentlemen! 

I rather feel that universities aren't the best places for creative people, but of course one has to earn a living somehow. I wonder how Martle feels about it?
I have to very strongly disagree with you on this point.  because, erm...in my field, there's no sustainable way to be anything really, creative or otherwise, outside of academia.  The same goes for a lot of researchers/scholars in the sciences and humanities.  Some people (I don't have in mind people on this board) spend their whole time complaining about academia and never even for a moment speak to its good points.  Maybe they feel they're redressing the balance, or maybe they feel that the very fact that they stay in the profession speaks more than enough for itself, but I find it occasionally quite difficult to process or take too seriously certain classes of critiques by academics about academia (once again, I don't have in mind any people on this forum).
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #13 on: 14:38:38, 09-09-2008 »

I am not an academic, but for me the difficulty of academic life is relentless pressure to publish in good journals while doing all sort of routine teaching, preparation, meeting with students, meetings, lectures.
Where do they think people get time to do serious research? In their sleep?

And there is no time for family at all.
Many people on the department have nervous break downs. And not only people who work have break downs, their partners can not take it too. I know many people like that here and elsewhere.
« Last Edit: 06:05:47, 10-09-2008 by trained-pianist » Logged
Ian Pace
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« Reply #14 on: 14:43:19, 09-09-2008 »

Mort, lots of people have been chiming in about what's wrong with academia in this thread. I don't really see why offering a different view is any more off-topic.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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