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time_is_now
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« Reply #30 on: 20:26:58, 09-09-2008 » |
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In any case I can't for the life of me imagine saying something like this I sometimes worry that this may be leading to a dilution of the most rigorous and intense theoretical/scholarly practice without quotation marks and a footnote. At least not until the musical part of my soul dies. Purely a matter of my own personal priorities, you understand. Indeed (to the last sentence). I don't think one needs to be unsympathetic to Richard's current situation in order to find theory and scholarship intensely interesting and engaging, in a way that does not simply involve them being servants of something more 'purely musical'. I certainly don't. |
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #31 on: 20:51:39, 09-09-2008 » |
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I'm not sure if the point I was trying to make (albeit very qualified) was understood - it was about a worry that attempts to integrate theory and practice might lead to a devaluing of rigorous 'pure' scholarship and theory. That such things are so often dismissed out of hand by many practising musicians is itself cause for concern.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #32 on: 21:07:53, 09-09-2008 » |
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rigorous 'pure' scholarship and theory Which would mean what exactly? |
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marbleflugel
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« Reply #33 on: 21:20:54, 09-09-2008 » |
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I need to read up on the background re: Richard's situation, but I'd just like toregister my annoyance if the powers that be have had a go at the Weigold-Riley-Barrett caucus at Brunel, which seemed to me a bit of a beacon for how depts should be run, judging from its outreach bits. We have the cream of academe on this board, but there was a chancellory giving a dept the chance to address its own industry sector.Que Pasa?
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'...A celebrity is someone who didn't get the attention they needed as an adult'
Arnold Brown
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brassbandmaestro
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« Reply #34 on: 21:28:37, 09-09-2008 » |
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Brunel University at Uxbridge. Marbes?
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #35 on: 21:36:54, 09-09-2008 » |
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rigorous 'pure' scholarship and theory Which would mean what exactly? Where to start? How about Christoph Wolff's work on Bach, or Robbins Landon on Haydn, or Siegfried Kross on Brahms, or Francois Lesure on Debussy, or James Pritchett on Cage, or Robert Fink on minimalism? |
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« Last Edit: 12:24:32, 11-09-2008 by Ian Pace »
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #36 on: 21:39:01, 09-09-2008 » |
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rigorous 'pure' scholarship and theory Which would mean what exactly? Where to start? How about Christoph Wolff's work on Bach, or Robbins Landon on Haydn, or Siegfried Kross on Brahms, or Claude Lelouche on Debussy, or James Pritchett on Cage, or Robert Fink on minimalism? In what sense are they rigorous and 'pure'? I'm surprised to find you using those words, to be honest. |
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time_is_now
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« Reply #37 on: 21:47:53, 09-09-2008 » |
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In what sense are they rigorous and 'pure'? I'm surprised to find you using those words, to be honest.
So am I (or 'pure', at least: rigorous I can understand). I thought I was disagreeing with Ollie in post #7353 above, but I'm not sure whether this leaves me on the same side as Ian or not because I'm not quite sure what Ian's saying. I was trying to defend the importance - and, more crucially, the human interest - of philosophy and so-called 'cultural theory' against what seemed to be Ollie's implication that music was somehow more valuable than discursive thought. I don't think any of the writers on music Ian mentions, except possibly Robert Fink, are particularly concerned to uphold both sides of this apparent dichotomy. |
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #38 on: 21:49:09, 09-09-2008 » |
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I have no idea what you're trying to prove, o-s. They are rigorous in the extent to which they absorb and mediate the widest range of sources and perspectives, are aware of contemporary research, some of then drawing upon unpublished material, pursue their theoretical investigations in depth, aim for a measure of critical objectivity, and so on - all things that anyone with a rudimentary scholarly background is aware of - 'pure' (note the quotes in the original post) in the sense of not being directly tied to practical work. If the value of 'pure' scientific research is granted (whatever some politicians might think), then why not similarly for musicology or other artistic scholarly disciplines?
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« Last Edit: 21:56:52, 09-09-2008 by Ian Pace »
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #39 on: 21:55:31, 09-09-2008 » |
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T-i-n, from the original post, you'll see that this is one thought on the matter to be balanced against other considerations, not an unqualified piece of dogma (though the latter category generally seems favoured on internet forums). The issue I'm alluding to is of whether that sort of research can continue to flourish in a climate which may privilege work more obviously connected to direct practical applications.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #40 on: 22:02:17, 09-09-2008 » |
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Sorry to interpose here, but this is another diversion which deserves a separate thread, doesn't it?
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martle
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« Reply #41 on: 22:05:20, 09-09-2008 » |
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Ron, I posted earlier about a 'higher education' thread which I thought we might have - but I can't find it. Either way, this stuff needs to be somewhere else, I agree.
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Green. Always green.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #42 on: 22:06:50, 09-09-2008 » |
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Ron, could you do what martle suggested, if other parties agree, and move this to a higher education thread (I think the one if mentioned is on M&S, not here, so we might need a new one)?
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« Last Edit: 22:09:39, 09-09-2008 by Ian Pace »
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #43 on: 22:17:02, 09-09-2008 » |
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If the value of 'pure' scientific research is granted (whatever some politicians might think), then why not similarly for musicology or other artistic scholarly disciplines?
What surprises me is that you're willing to use these terms apparently so uncritically, that's all. |
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Turfan Fragment
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« Reply #44 on: 22:23:34, 09-09-2008 » |
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The issue I'm alluding to is of whether that sort of research can continue to flourish in a climate which may privilege work more obviously connected to direct practical applications.
'more obviously' -- that is the rub, isn't it? To whom does it need to be obvious? A government functionary or an ordinary layperson on the street (an ordinary person laying on the street) or a member of the research community? |
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