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Author Topic: Music in Higher Education  (Read 1418 times)
Morticia
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« Reply #15 on: 14:48:29, 09-09-2008 »

Mort, lots of people have been chiming in about what's wrong with academia in this thread. I don't really see why offering a different view is any more off-topic.

Fair enough, Ian. Differing views are fine, but can we try and keep the temperature down?
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #16 on: 14:51:01, 09-09-2008 »

Absolutely, and let's try to keep personalised insults out of it as well, not least because they are meant to be contrary to the rules of the board.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
trained-pianist
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« Reply #17 on: 15:44:33, 09-09-2008 »

Every time I say something like that about my work or about the university my composer and friend tells me something like that:

When I was working as a clerk in some education department I was so miserable. I had no time to write anything. When I was too tired to write I would draw musical staff for the next day.
Now he is retired and he can compose what he wants. I think he likes that.
This friend tells me that I have to be grateful for what I have.
(I would prefer to teach in music school, have a grand piano, etc).

I don't know why, but when he starts telling me about working in this office, going there in the morning, how they lived on one salary (they had two children and the wife stayed home) it makes me stop complaining.
They don't know how they survived, but they did some how.
They saw many interesting plays in Dublin.
I should know drama better.

My friend who understand cars always tells me that mechanics are good and that it is better to do what they tell you than to have your car stopped somewhere in the middle of nowhere.
« Last Edit: 15:49:50, 09-09-2008 by trained-pianist » Logged
Mary Chambers
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« Reply #18 on: 17:39:15, 09-09-2008 »

Calm down gentlemen! 

I rather feel that universities aren't the best places for creative people, but of course one has to earn a living somehow. I wonder how Martle feels about it?
I have to very strongly disagree with you on this point.  because, erm...in my field, there's no sustainable way to be anything really, creative or otherwise, outside of academia.  

I don't think I know what your field is, though I'm sure I should.

I'm thinking of the English departments I have known, which were full of people who didn't really want to analyse literature for a living - they wanted to create it. They found academic life second best. I was a bit like this myself, except there wasn't the slightest chance of making my living from writing. I was never happy as an academic, and got out as soon as possible. My brother, on the other hand -  a scientist - adores the life. It's his whole world, even though he is officially retired.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #19 on: 17:50:54, 09-09-2008 »

I'm thinking of the English departments I have known, which were full of people who didn't really want to analyse literature for a living - they wanted to create it. They found academic life second best.
I imagine that was true of many English, Modern Languages, Art, Music and Cinema departments for a long time - as opposed to other disciplines (most of the sciences, Philosophy, History, Sociology, etc.) where the activity does not seem 'secondary' in the same way. But things do seem to be changing as 'practice' is integrated into university departments to a greater extent (this may be very particular to the UK) - certainly in music there is a much greater degree of composition and performance being classified as 'research' as well as being integrated into teaching curricula, than in other times and places where the boundaries between 'theory' and 'practice' were/are stark and relatively immutable. When wearing my musicologist's hat, I sometimes worry that this may be leading to a dilution of the most rigorous and intense theoretical/scholarly practice (and it's not easy to frame the requirements of 'practice as research' in such a manner as to be comparable with other forms of 'pure research', and thus deserving of the same qualifications), but on the whole it seems a development for the good.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
oliver sudden
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« Reply #20 on: 18:01:02, 09-09-2008 »

I sometimes worry that this may be leading to a dilution of the most rigorous and intense theoretical/scholarly practice

I can't agree for a moment, personally - at least I can't agree from the point of view of the music itself and as far as I'm concerned this is exactly the wrong way around. It seems quite ridiculous to me to force either music or musicology to jump through hoops that weren't meant for them just for the purpose of putting a price on them.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #21 on: 18:20:06, 09-09-2008 »

It seems quite ridiculous to me to force either music or musicology to jump through hoops that weren't meant for them just for the purpose of putting a price on them.

Indeed. Some research disciplines are so to speak more equal than others - composition, for example, is supposed to be classed as research, but obtaining a commission for a composition is not considered to be equivalent to obtaining a research grant for musicology or whatever, because it doesn't bring any cashg to the university. So composers are tacitly (sometimes not so tacitly) expected to do both.

An aspect of this situation which worries me more is that research funding for university-based composers is gradually but inexorably taking over the function that commission funding from the Arts Council and similar organisations used to have, in other words conferring an advantage on composers with academic positions and locking subsidies quite literally into the ivory tower.
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martle
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« Reply #22 on: 18:40:57, 09-09-2008 »

(Folks, we do I think have a thread for music in HE or some such, so perhaps a kind mod could filter the recent, relevant posts to it?)

Yes, there is now heavy internal pressure on composers to conform to research-council-directed projects, since the income is so much greater than the sort of commission fees most of us can command. But that doesn't mean our paltry commission fee income is immune - we've been in discussions at my place about folding even this into the 'research economy', although as long as we're only scraping small sums that's unlikely to be a runner. Universities will next look at the value-added benefits of 'commissions' in terms of kudos and esteem and weigh this against the cash income...
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Green. Always green.
Ian Pace
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« Reply #23 on: 18:47:20, 09-09-2008 »

I sometimes worry that this may be leading to a dilution of the most rigorous and intense theoretical/scholarly practice

I can't agree for a moment, personally - at least I can't agree from the point of view of the music itself and as far as I'm concerned this is exactly the wrong way around. It seems quite ridiculous to me to force either music or musicology to jump through hoops that weren't meant for them just for the purpose of putting a price on them.
I don't get what you're saying, in the context of my earlier remarks? Which hoops are you referring to - PhDs that were not originally intended for practical composition or performance? Despite some possible misgivings about such things, I wouldn't like to see them abolished (and have been working a little on and off on how to devise and promote a performance PhD - in theory such a thing already exists, it's more a question of how it's framed and presented so as to attract certain types of potential students). Or do you not think it's a good thing to try and bring about a greater integration between musicology and practical music-making (or the equivalent in other art forms/disciplines)?
« Last Edit: 18:53:22, 09-09-2008 by Ian Pace » Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
A
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« Reply #24 on: 18:48:07, 09-09-2008 »

I have not been in higher education, only up to the age of 18. I do know the stresses though as we also had all the paper work etc that to some degree is similar to that in universities.

I think the problem that you are facing  Richard is not the acadaemia 'thing' but that you are not happy in your job (whatever it may have been) at the moment. If this is the case you may well decide that something else is appropriate for you. If you are young enough to change I would suggest that is what you should do - I believe that quality of life (and most of your days are spent working up to a certain age) is the most important thing for your bodily and mental health.

I hope I haven't spoken out of turn

A
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Well, there you are.
richard barrett
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« Reply #25 on: 18:55:30, 09-09-2008 »

A, my main "job" is writing and performing music (at least I call it that). This isn't going to change and I would never wish it to. My secondary job is teaching. My problem is either that it's impossible for me to do this the way I think it ought to be done within the institution where I'm currently doing it, or that "the way I think it ought to be done" is wrong. Either is possible.

Anyway, thank you all (almost all) for cheering me up today. Last night, when I was in something of a rage, I was instructed by nearest & dearest over the phone to take a day off work before I have a stroke. Well, that was the day off work.
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #26 on: 19:04:35, 09-09-2008 »

I know all about strokes. We have it here on the daily bases.

Some people can take things better than others.

t-p here also likes to do research better than to teach, but teaching lets us survive. I don't think he likes teaching much.
Some courses are too primitive because students are not on the right level yet.
Now he is mostly teaching more senior years (if I may say so). I forgot how he calls them.
If one is in a better place (like Oxford) then conditions for teaching and doing research are better.
But not all people can be in Harvard or Princeton.
Sometimes one can not find a different position and has to perceiver in the old job. May be opportunity will come later for a move.
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #27 on: 19:21:00, 09-09-2008 »

An aspect of this situation which worries me more is that research funding for university-based composers is gradually but inexorably taking over the function that commission funding from the Arts Council and similar organisations used to have, in other words conferring an advantage on composers with academic positions and locking subsidies quite literally into the ivory tower.
For me another worrisome thing there is that the way this system works at the moment seems to me to be the accidental product of a research culture which as far as I can tell has no particular interest in the musical side of things continuing under its benevolent patronage. I remember not so long ago hearing of the possibility of a movement in counting of research points from something publications-based to something much more citations-based. Which would as far as I can see not be all that great for the aforesaid tower.
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #28 on: 19:40:10, 09-09-2008 »

I sometimes worry that this may be leading to a dilution of the most rigorous and intense theoretical/scholarly practice

I can't agree for a moment, personally - at least I can't agree from the point of view of the music itself and as far as I'm concerned this is exactly the wrong way around. It seems quite ridiculous to me to force either music or musicology to jump through hoops that weren't meant for them just for the purpose of putting a price on them.
I don't get what you're saying, in the context of my earlier remarks? Which hoops are you referring to - PhDs that were not originally intended for practical composition or performance? Despite some possible misgivings about such things, I wouldn't like to see them abolished (and have been working a little on and off on how to devise and promote a performance PhD - in theory such a thing already exists, it's more a question of how it's framed and presented so as to attract certain types of potential students). Or do you not think it's a good thing to try and bring about a greater integration between musicology and practical music-making (or the equivalent in other art forms/disciplines)?
I suppose what I'm trying to get at is that as far as I'm concerned remunerating compositional or performance or musicological practice according to its ability to attract research points under whichever system happens to be in vogue at the time is just as likely to distort the fundamental nature of the practice as remunerating it according to its ability to function in a commercial marketplace. (Of course it's a matter of degree as well as of kind.) There's already a certain amount of concern that counting citation points leads in some quarters to the kind of sensationalist research that is simply likely to be cited, regardless of the nature of the citation - I'm sure we've all seen musicology that fits that description.

In any case I can't for the life of me imagine saying something like this
I sometimes worry that this may be leading to a dilution of the most rigorous and intense theoretical/scholarly practice
without quotation marks and a footnote. At least not until the musical part of my soul dies.

Purely a matter of my own personal priorities, you understand.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #29 on: 20:02:31, 09-09-2008 »

I see what you mean - a citation-based ratings certainly does have the dangers you mention, also that of favouring research in more 'popular' areas (rather than that into more obscure topics of interest to a smaller number of other scholars). On the other hand, the latter has other benefits for the scholar, not least that there are less others likely to haul them over the coals for any shortcomings in their work.

Perhaps inevitably, composition and performance based 'research' will also favour that work which has a more explicit theoretical underpinning - for example that involving elaborate compositional systems, electronics, or complex aesthetic engagements - whilst that which might loosely be called more 'intuitive' is harder to practice successfully in a university environment. I'm not sure if I know a solution to that, if the incorporation of practical work into universities is to be about more than simply the practitioners continuing to do their practice, which they would do anyhow.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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