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Author Topic: what makes a good piece of music?  (Read 3195 times)
richard barrett
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« Reply #90 on: 17:36:04, 04-05-2007 »

I used to think that such a scheme would be an invitation to all kinds of abuses, but so is the present one
What, like the Aldeburgh Festival scrabbling around for £25,000 this summer to meet its own artistic director's fee for a suite from an opera he wrote 10 years ago? Never! Roll Eyes
Maybe he's being blackmailed by orchestrators.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #91 on: 17:38:34, 04-05-2007 »

And if anyone doesn't like Mahler as an example, how about Varèse, who didn't write very much at all, partly because he was attempting to rethink musical composition in (what I believe is) a much more fundamental way than Schoenberg, in such a way that the results of this rethinking are rather few and far between. Or indeed Webern. (Come on, Anton, you lazy sod, those pieces of yours are so short you ought to be able to write half a dozen of them a week!)

How either Varèse or Webern made enough money to live off (or had enough independent money to start off with) is surely of great importance in this context.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
martle
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« Reply #92 on: 17:41:14, 04-05-2007 »

There are a variety of middle-roads between the fully stipendiary model and that of commissioning. One I quite like, and have been involved in the selection process for, is the idea of a 'proposal' for work - whether of general nature or towards a specific (and ultimately to be completed) piece. You invite proposals for a project (or programme of work), which may consist of verbal plans and/ or sketch work, and which of course can be submitted anonymously, and select on the bases of these, rather than a pre-existing work or reputation. Rare, but it's an interesting alternative.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #93 on: 17:42:58, 04-05-2007 »

Actually, I do favour the stipendiary system overall
A nation breathes a sigh of relief. Yes, there are all those issues of checks and balances. But the main point is to change the emphasis from product to creativity.
Quote
And isn't it likely to cause some ill-feeling if one composer receives the same stipend as another but whose productivity is 5-10 times greater
Composers who have a tendency to harbour ill-feeling towards their colleagues will always find a reason for doing so.
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Biroc
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« Reply #94 on: 17:43:22, 04-05-2007 »

I used to think that such a scheme would be an invitation to all kinds of abuses, but so is the present one
What, like the Aldeburgh Festival scrabbling around for £25,000 this summer to meet its own artistic director's fee for a suite from an opera he wrote 10 years ago? Never! Roll Eyes
Maybe he's being blackmailed by orchestrators.

 Grin
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #95 on: 17:47:24, 04-05-2007 »

Actually, I do favour the stipendiary system overall
A nation breathes a sigh of relief. Yes, there are all those issues of checks and balances. But the main point is to change the emphasis from product to creativity.

Sure, but how do you measure the creativity (if such a thing can be done) other than by considering the work?

Quote
Quote
And isn't it likely to cause some ill-feeling if one composer receives the same stipend as another but whose productivity is 5-10 times greater
Composers who have a tendency to harbour ill-feeling towards their colleagues will always find a reason for doing so.

Of course, but that is a real issue. Would you say there should be some bottom-line in terms of productivity and/or any weighting of the stipendiary in terms of the productivity that the composer achieves; also should composers be able to accept commission fees (for example, from abroad) on top of a stipendiary?

The proposal that martle puts is very interesting - little question about that (just relating some things to do with other types of research grants): were there any stipulations in terms of the final work having to correspond to the initial proposals?
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
quartertone
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« Reply #96 on: 18:19:40, 04-05-2007 »

Each form of support has its shortcomings; commissioning simply single pieces potentially leads to commodification and routine, but stipends alone, while offering freedom for production, might not lead to projects, connections to musicians etc. The best form of support, in my opinion, would be a stipend that was bound to specific compositional tasks with specific musicians. Something like Schloss Solitude in Stuttgart offers the potential for connections and projects, of course, but having a residency there doesn't guarantee any concrete results. Especially young composers with relatively little experience of rehearsing their pieces and trying things out with players would benefit from something like that, as opposed to just sponsorship to write at their desk.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #97 on: 18:37:37, 04-05-2007 »

I promised the other day to post something in relation to another issue, that of expressing one's own views on what makes a specific piece of music good - and doing so in a way that one hopes might communicate that to, and maybe even convince, other people.

Here's an attempt to do just that:

http://www.nmcrec.co.uk/?page=home/news.html&id=123
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
calum da jazbo
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« Reply #98 on: 18:56:26, 04-05-2007 »

the most reasonable sponsorship policy would be a set of schemes that supported pieces/projects/persons with varying time spans. public sector committees of the g&g etc make these kinds of decisions all the time. the problem is getting the dosh in the first place. and not just for music; painting drama dance poetry and the other arts are very worthwhile investments for a sane, cultivated and civil society.

this discussion could lead one to the inference that what makes a good piece of music is less to the point than how does one make a living composing such a 'piece'.

as a lay reader i am left with goodall's pantheon of Stravinsky, Cole Porter and Lennon&McCartney in the contemporary field because they wrote melodic and accessible music; this does not fit well with the fun i just had listening to a snippet of ian playing tracts 1 by richard! or my daughter playing mira by stephen montague (ta).
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richard barrett
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« Reply #99 on: 19:39:35, 04-05-2007 »

Each form of support has its shortcomings; commissioning simply single pieces potentially leads to commodification and routine, but stipends alone, while offering freedom for production, might not lead to projects, connections to musicians etc. The best form of support, in my opinion, would be a stipend that was bound to specific compositional tasks with specific musicians. Something like Schloss Solitude in Stuttgart offers the potential for connections and projects, of course, but having a residency there doesn't guarantee any concrete results. Especially young composers with relatively little experience of rehearsing their pieces and trying things out with players would benefit from something like that, as opposed to just sponsorship to write at their desk.
I reckon there's a lot of sense in that, also in Martle's "proposal" idea (which isn't so different from the way research projects are initiated, of course). Although, with the latter, there's the risk that the opportunities go to those most adept at talking the talk (rather than making the music), and I've seen this often happen, because the Hauptstadtkulturfonds in Berlin works in broadly this way - I've had occasion to look at some of the proposals which have gone on to be successful (I've never actually made one myself, by the way), and there seems to be much competition for who can purvey the most exquisitely pretentious merde de taureau.
« Last Edit: 19:55:50, 04-05-2007 by richard barrett » Logged
richard barrett
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« Reply #100 on: 19:44:04, 04-05-2007 »

I promised the other day to post something in relation to another issue, that of expressing one's own views on what makes a specific piece of music good - and doing so in a way that one hopes might communicate that to, and maybe even convince, other people.

Here's an attempt to do just that:

http://www.nmcrec.co.uk/?page=home/news.html&id=123

"... the heavenly love-child of Stockhausen and Tippett"

Nice. (Not sure whether I'm happy imagining the conception thereof.)
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time_is_now
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« Reply #101 on: 20:06:57, 04-05-2007 »

(Not sure whether I'm happy imagining the conception thereof.)

Hmmm. I didn't think about that! Undecided

For some reason I can't play any of the music files. Hope they used the extracts I suggested.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
time_is_now
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« Reply #102 on: 20:22:06, 04-05-2007 »

Each form of support has its shortcomings; commissioning simply single pieces potentially leads to commodification and routine, but stipends alone, while offering freedom for production, might not lead to projects, connections to musicians etc.
I was going to say something quite similar actually. I wasn't particularly aware of the stipend system in Holland (I know something similar operates in Ireland, involving a government stipend plus tax breaks, although as I understand it Bono is as much a beneficiary as Gerald Barry, which I suppose could be hard to argue with in theory but seems unfortunate in practice). But while it seems a very good idea, not least for the reason Richard and Ollie have both mentioned, that it can help to focus on creativity as a ongoing process (what Deleuze might have called an ongoing project of self-creation) rather than a finite one ending with a single product, I can also see how the sudden arrival of an unexpected commission, the new contacts it creates, the new trains of thought it sparks off, etc. are all positive things that are enabled by the current system. Unpredictability, of income and of attention, has its up-sides as well as it downs.

I suppose part of this is just that I know what sort of successful solutions composers adopt under the current system and don't (yet) know what solutions they'd find under a different system. It's not really an argument against change.

Is it just me or are my sentences getting longer recently? I hope it doesn't interfere too much with their comprehensibility. I might lose my stipend otherwise Embarrassed
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Ian Pace
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« Reply #103 on: 20:27:39, 04-05-2007 »

I wasn't particularly aware of the stipend system in Holland (I know something similar operates in Ireland, involving a government stipend plus tax breaks, although as I understand it Bono is as much a beneficiary as Gerald Barry, which I suppose could be hard to argue with in theory but seems unfortunate in practice).

Well, I can't remember the fine details of how it is operated, but Irish composer friends (some of whom are on stipends there) seem to think it's all a bit of a joke and possibly a way of jiggling money around that benefits few. I will check on the details of this and post again.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
time_is_now
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« Reply #104 on: 20:30:50, 04-05-2007 »

the Hauptstadtkulturfonds in Berlin works in broadly this way ... there seems to be much competition for who can purvey the most exquisitely pretentious merde de taureau

I think that's not so much a local delicacy as a staple diet across the world in many professional contexts. But then commissions also tend to arise as a result of composers and/or their promoters either knowing people* or knowing how to talk the talk - it's just a bit more visible when the merde is on paper, as it were.
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*That's not to say people don't sometimes make their friends/professional connections based on admiring each other's work, rather than the other way round. Just that it's not always easy to know how such contacts arise.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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