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Author Topic: what makes a good piece of music?  (Read 3195 times)
richard barrett
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« Reply #75 on: 14:56:05, 04-05-2007 »

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And there's even a nice extra twist: "If I can already see from this two page proposal that the piece described here is likely to be good, then maybe it doesn't actually need to be written anyway".

Which is indeed where the assessment has to be based around the process rather than the product. The point is not to pay for a piece but to support its creator to continue contributing to musical life.
Yes indeed. I've always thought in any case that the whole business of "pieces being commissioned" is a dodgy one. One of the many problems arising from it is that composers who gain a certain amount of attention in the musical world (particularly when they're still at an early stage in their development) are showered with more commissions than they can fulfil without sacrificing something - one quite successful composer I know once said to me "it's OK to write a bad piece now and again". I think this is wrong. Very few composers create work on the same level of "inspiration" throughout their lives, of course, but there's something very suspect to me about slackening off and completing a work to commission just because the commission is there, as opposed to putting all one's commitment into every project, even if it ends up not being completed on time, or at all. If Mahler, for example, had been dependent on the kind of commissioning culture that we now have, he might have written thirty indifferent symphonies instead of nine and a half masterpieces, or on the other hand he might have died even younger from the pressure.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #76 on: 15:04:00, 04-05-2007 »

If Mahler, for example, had been dependent on the kind of commissioning culture that we now have, he might have written thirty indifferent symphonies instead of nine and a half masterpieces, or on the other hand he might have died even younger from the pressure.

Well, Mahler only lived to the age of 51, and composed his nine-and-a-half symphonies and his song cycles from Des Knaben Wunderhorn onwards over a period of less than 25 years (a composer who received commissions for all of those works during that period wouldn't be doing too badly today). During this time, he was also heavily occupied as a conductor with major orchestras and opera houses, which I imagine provided the bulk of his income; if he wasn't doing all of that, maybe he would have composed even more, not necessarily of any lesser quality? He was by all accounts an extremely talented conductor - not all composers have comparable skills either as conductor or instrumentalist, but still need to be able to make a living. I find the commissioning circuit deeply problematic, but I'm not sure if I know of a better alternative.
« Last Edit: 15:06:43, 04-05-2007 by Ian Pace » Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
richard barrett
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« Reply #77 on: 16:03:41, 04-05-2007 »

I find the commissioning circuit deeply problematic, but I'm not sure if I know of a better alternative.
There's no reason why you should of course, not yourself being principally a composer, but I think a far better alternative is contained in Ollie's last post, viz.
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The point is not to pay for a piece but to support its creator to continue contributing to musical life
- that is to say, in the form of stipends of some kind which allow the work to go on and develop. (The Scandinavian countries have systems like this, I think, and so did the Netherlands until it was greatly scaled down not so long ago, not that I ever reached the dizzy heights of annual stipends while I was living there.) One advantage of this kind of scheme is that it potentially puts composers of notated and of non-notated music on an equal footing, by not concentrating on "commodities" in the form of scores. I used to think that such a scheme would be an invitation to all kinds of abuses, but so is the present one, and I think that putting the emphasis on process rather than product, and indeed quality rather than quantity, would pay off in artistic terms rather better than the way things work now. There'd be no guarantee that more "good pieces" would be produced, but at least there'd be a better chance of fewer pointless ones which neither the composer nor anyone else much care about.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #78 on: 16:15:35, 04-05-2007 »

If Mahler, for example, had been dependent on the kind of commissioning culture that we now have, he might have written thirty indifferent symphonies instead of nine and a half masterpieces, or on the other hand he might have died even younger from the pressure.
Do we take it from this that most of Haydn's symphonies and Bach's cantatas are indifferent, then? (That's half-rhetorical: I know plenty of people who'd agree with that sentiment.)
No, we don't. Mahler's symphonies for various reasons took longer to write than Haydn's. This isn't in any way a reflection on their quality. Nowadays the (financial) pressure is for the Mahlers among us to write their symphonies as quickly as the Haydns, and I think it's clear that this could lead those Mahlers to churn out more stuff than would be consistent with the kind of evolution and the kind of quality that the real Mahler had. And if anyone doesn't like Mahler as an example, how about Varèse, who didn't write very much at all, partly because he was attempting to rethink musical composition in (what I believe is) a much more fundamental way than Schoenberg, in such a way that the results of this rethinking are rather few and far between. Or indeed Webern. (Come on, Anton, you lazy sod, those pieces of yours are so short you ought to be able to write half a dozen of them a week!)
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martle
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« Reply #79 on: 16:25:39, 04-05-2007 »

 
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Or indeed Webern. (Come on, Anton, you lazy sod, those pieces of yours are so short you ought to be able to write half a dozen of them a week!)

Just on that point: I remember explaining (earnestly and with what I thought of as an appropriate degree of gravitas) to a prospective postgrad composer the requirement that he write a 'substantial' work as part of the course, and suggesting that this meant perhaps a 20-minute orchestral work, or a 40-minute piece of musical theatre. He said, 'So Webern wouldn't have passed then.' Quite.  Sad
« Last Edit: 16:36:39, 04-05-2007 by martle » Logged

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richard barrett
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« Reply #80 on: 16:34:58, 04-05-2007 »

Don't forget though that Webern actually DID complete a fairly substantial piece of work as a doctoral student: his study of Heinrich Isaac's Choralis Constantinus which he produced while studying musicology in Vienna.

It was all coasting from there on, obviously.
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calum da jazbo
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« Reply #81 on: 16:37:33, 04-05-2007 »

some thoughts from psychology...

highly gifted individuals in the arts or sciences produce far more work than the average; the probability is they will produce a greater quantity of poor work as well as masterpieces. this is empirically demonstrated by http://www.amazon.com/Origins-Genius-Darwinian-Perspectives-Creativity/dp/product-description/0195128796

the french it would appear, place a qualifying requirement on the person; if it comes to sponsorship i think the question is always going to be about the quality of the person, even the estimate of the probability of a piece being worth investing in is likely an evaluation of the person. the problem here is the winner takes all market in personal reputations and the low likeliehood of the outsider who creates the big surprise being in any way supported, except by general education.

do gestalt notions of form assist in judging a piece? a sense of intrinsic unity and coherence - a resolution of tension; an interesting complexity of textures, and dynamic variation? i've also found bernstein's borrowing of universal syntax concepts quite compelling as a layman, but perhaps that was plausible then and not now?
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richard barrett
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« Reply #82 on: 16:41:17, 04-05-2007 »

The sort of stipendiary support (and security) that Ian's advocating
I thought is was me advocating it! Anyway, if Ian also is, all well and good.
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I'm not sure I'd agree with the bald statement that turning out the occasional bad piece is "wrong" - to some extent it's unavoidable, maybe even desirable (you can't have mountains without a few valleys and foothills). Whether that bad piece then sees the light of day is down to the composer and those who commission/perform the music.
That's right. And it certainly is unavoidable, but going into a project with a "take the money and run" attitude is certainly not going to help.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #83 on: 16:42:32, 04-05-2007 »

some thoughts from psychology...
But... it's also true that most mathematicians produce their best work in their twenties, which can't be said of that many composers.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #84 on: 16:49:16, 04-05-2007 »

Take the money, maybe; but how far you can run when your name's on the piece is questionable
I think the implication of the colleague in question was that once one's "career" has achieved a certain level and momentum one can easily get away with producing a pup now and again.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #85 on: 17:07:09, 04-05-2007 »

I used to think that such a scheme would be an invitation to all kinds of abuses, but so is the present one
What, like the Aldeburgh Festival scrabbling around for £25,000 this summer to meet its own artistic director's fee for a suite from an opera he wrote 10 years ago? Never! Roll Eyes
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Ian Pace
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« Reply #86 on: 17:24:26, 04-05-2007 »

Nowadays the (financial) pressure is for the Mahlers among us to write their symphonies as quickly as the Haydns

Well, I can't think of a single contemporary composer who comes anywhere near matching Haydn's level of productivity.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
richard barrett
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« Reply #87 on: 17:32:03, 04-05-2007 »

Nowadays the (financial) pressure is for the Mahlers among us to write their symphonies as quickly as the Haydns

Well, I can't think of a single contemporary composer who comes anywhere near matching Haydn's level of productivity.
What I was doing was what we humans call making a general point.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #88 on: 17:33:57, 04-05-2007 »

Actually, I do favour the stipendiary system overall, but don't see it as so fundamentally different to the commissioning circuit. For a start, decisions have to be made as to who well be given a stipend - as with commissions, that surely has something to do with their previous track record (though of course all sorts of other political factors inevitably come into things - also this sort of system can put a tremendous amount of power into a small number of hands, which might not use that scrupulously; the same is true of commissions, though the stakes are slightly less high). And then, are they just given such stipends for life, or should they be subject to conditional renewal? If not the latter, what's to stop someone getting a stipend and producing practically nothing? Presumably some sort of bottom line needs to be created in terms of productivity if stipends are to be renewed, say, every 10 years or so? And isn't it likely to cause some ill-feeling if one composer receives the same stipend as another but whose productivity is 5-10 times greater, perhaps because the other composer is making more money on the side doing other things (such as conducting)? How to deal with these problems? If there is some bottom line in terms of productivity, isn't it just like saying 'here's a commission for a minimum number of pieces', though allowing some more flexibility in terms of forces, nature of the work, etc. (but then there are still issues of performances). And as such that's all someone can make, unless they supplement their income with, er, commissions (maybe from abroad)?

Some of the issues very much mirror those of tenure in universities.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Ian Pace
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« Reply #89 on: 17:34:48, 04-05-2007 »

Nowadays the (financial) pressure is for the Mahlers among us to write their symphonies as quickly as the Haydns

Well, I can't think of a single contemporary composer who comes anywhere near matching Haydn's level of productivity.
What I was doing was what we humans call making a general point.

I know, but I think Mahler's level of productivity is probably more comparable to that of many contemporary composers.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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