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« Reply #45 on: 20:45:59, 02-05-2007 » |
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Is that important? Does it make Ferneyhough's music more or less "good"? Does the fact that The Sun is read by many more people than any other UK newspaper make it a better newspaper? With respect, opilec, we're so far into detailed discussion of exactly those questions that your re-stating them at this point makes me wonder if you've actually been following the thread. Does it even make it a newspaper? Yes. |
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #46 on: 20:52:04, 02-05-2007 » |
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One of the things that would lead me to consider a piece of music good (rather than simply to my own taste) would be if the composer is sufficiently in command of his materials both to sustain my interest in the piece and to stimulate my mind to make connections between the piece and things outside the piece, which could be either (or preferably both) other pieces of music in my listening experience (by the same and by other composers) and/or other phenomena in the world. That last category is likely to include issues concerning the way individual human consciousnesses relate to each other, and the way human consciousness at a more collective level relates to its preceived environment (both diachronic and synchronic).
That's very interesting (as is George's earlier comment). Maybe calls for someone to relate it to Habermas's Theory of Communicative Action, which I haven't read yet (I think quartertone has, though - if he's reading, any thoughts in this respect?). Would you say that a piece that makes such connections, but in a 'non-identical' mode (obviously no art is identical with that with which it connects, but some presents a particularly pronounced critical distance from such things whilst still relating to them - for example late expressionist distortions of reality) can be of a particularly high level of value? |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #47 on: 20:59:18, 02-05-2007 » |
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Whatever we do, don't mention the most calamitous event of the twentieth-century Not at all. Just don't take its name in vain, was what I was getting at. Celan experienced it. You bring it up at the drop of a hat. It didn't need to be here, it trivialises it to bring it up continuously and it ruins discussions. Surely you've noticed? It does not trivialise it to bring it up in contexts where it is relevant. You may have noticed that there are a great many people that consider that issue pretty fundamental to the whole context of both 19th- and 20th-century European history and culture. And these latter subjects do often come up here. It might 'ruin discussions' when it comes up in the context of Wagner, for example, or for that matter in the context of the mob scenes of Grimes (actually haven't brought that up, but a lot of people who've studied that work believe it to have been a significant influence on the work) when people (especially you, it would seem) would rather that such things are sidelined, but I don't think that makes the subject irrelevant. By the way, you might find that if you get down from that soapbox people will find you less of a pain in the neck to talk to. So why do they bother talking and responding on here? Surely they have better things to do. And perhaps you could offer something more than ad hominem attacks, cheery-chappy postings, and a handful of attempts to outdo Sydney Grew? |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #49 on: 21:09:42, 02-05-2007 » |
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With respect, opilec, we're so far into detailed discussion of exactly those questions that your re-stating them at this point makes me wonder if you've actually been following the thread.
Well, I have been trying to follow it, but ... I'll still get me coat then ...  Noooo - do put your coat back on the hook! I suppose, give or take a few interspersions from those who want to declare the question not worth discussing, we're talking at length about whether any criteria can be established by which Ferneyhough, independently of how many people listen to him, could still be conceived as having some intrinsic worth (being 'good'!); similarly for newspapers, perhaps. I suppose I believe that Ferneyhough's music at its best offers some type of meaningful experience, for which umpteen adjectives could be offered (whilst keeping away from 'beguiling', hopefully  ) which is quite unlike any other, and can relate that to my perceptions of humans, the world, etc. I'd hope that this might be true for a great many people, even if that sort of experience isn't what they might choose to partake of. And with newspapers, some of the more serious press (er, well, some of the time) offer more insightful analysis and reportage of many events, in a way that The Sun, which needs to be entertaining above all, doesn't do, precisely because of that latter criteria. Wondered your thoughts on these matters? |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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time_is_now
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« Reply #50 on: 21:12:14, 02-05-2007 » |
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Would you say that a piece that makes such connections, but in a 'non-identical' mode (obviously no art is identical with that with which it connects, but some presents a particularly pronounced critical distance from such things whilst still relating to them - for example late expressionist distortions of reality) can be of a particularly high level of value? I think I might, yes, though I'm not sure I've really thought this through at a conscious enough level to answer that question. One thing I would say is that I wasn't particularly trying to valorise non-identity, at least not in the comment I just made. It may be relevant, but I was expressing a much more basic reaction really, which is that it does seem to me that all my richest experiences of music have sparked off thoughts about things outside the music. It's not the only thing they've done, but for example the reason I don't consider, say, Lindberg's music very good is that my mind while listening tends to remain very focused on questions of technique. It's not even particularly that the technique is bad: I do think it's severely limited in Lindberg's case, but when I say that I'm not judging the limitation in terms of his ability to generate interesting orchestral textures etc. so much as in terms of my confidence that anything he composed could ever have the sort of wider significance that would make me inclined to defend it when confronted with the sort of funding and other questions you've brought up. I do think that that wider significance is grounded in music's capacity to provoke thought and to relate to 'the world', whatever you take that to mean. I suppose if pushed I would argue that a 'non-identical' relation to the world is desirable, but I think the fact that we're talking about one phenomenon (an art-form) establishing links to others (both man-made and otherwise) is maybe already enough to guarantee the worthwhileness of the process. Perhaps I'd rather phrase it in terms of the power to create (de-/re-)territorialisations (in Deleuze/Guattari's sense) rather than talk of 'making connections ... in a non-identical mode'. |
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« Last Edit: 21:15:34, 02-05-2007 by time_is_now »
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #51 on: 21:19:10, 02-05-2007 » |
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One thing I would say is that I wasn't particularly trying to valorise non-identity, at least not in the comment I just made. Sure, I realised that, was just interested in your thoughts on that. (Agree very much with the stuff I've snipped, not least in relation to Lindberg!  I wonder, sometimes - can deficiency of technique and paucity of vision (I get the idea you think Lindberg exhibits both!) be clearly separated?) I suppose if pushed I would argue that a 'non-identical' relation to the world is desirable, but I think the fact that we're talking about one phenomenon (an art-form) establishing links to others (both man-made and otherwise) is maybe already enough to guarantee the worthwhileness of the process. Perhaps I'd rather phrase it in terms of the power to create (de-/re-)territorialisations (in Deleuze/Guattari's sense) rather than talk of 'making connections in a non-identical mode'. Right - need to think about that. Could it maybe be concluded from that that the very fact of creating an art-work already guarantees non-identity (which connects with the 'realism' issues that came up somewhere else)? |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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time_is_now
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« Reply #52 on: 21:21:30, 02-05-2007 » |
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Could it maybe be concluded from that that the very fact of creating an art-work already guarantees non-identity (which connects with the 'realism' issues that came up somewhere else)? I think that's kind of what I was suggesting, though I'd never thought about it quite like that until I started writing that message. But I was also trying to keep the discussion open beyond your category of 'some [art which] presents a particularly pronounced critical distance from [that with which it connects] whilst still relating to them' ... not that I don't agree with this, but I don't believe that's the only kind of art which I'd want to say is 'good' in the terms I used. Don't think I saw the realism discussion - was this on another thread? |
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« Last Edit: 21:25:14, 02-05-2007 by time_is_now »
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #53 on: 21:31:07, 02-05-2007 » |
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Could it maybe be concluded from that that the very fact of creating an art-work already guarantees non-identity (which connects with the 'realism' issues that came up somewhere else)? I think that's kind of what I was suggesting, though I'd never thought about it quite like that until I started writing that message. But I was also trying to keep the discussion open beyond your category of 'some [art which] presents a particularly pronounced critical distance from [that with which it connects] whilst still relating to them' ... not that I don't agree with this, but I don't believe that's the only kind of art which I'd want to say is 'good' in the terms I used. Sure, and I can see how that definition might seem to be narrow. It depends on how one defines 'critical', I suppose - I don't mean something pejorative, more akin to German kritisch as far as I understand the term, simply to do with 'subjective distance', if that makes sense? Basically, trying to find some virtue in allowing subjective perception into the equation (though some post-modernists might disagree here, as we've discussed elsewhere! ) Don't think I saw the realism discussion - was this on another thread? Yes, the 'few naive questions' one, about the question of whether 'suspension of disbelief' applies in the context of music - http://r3ok.myforum365.com/index.php?topic=998.60 |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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time_is_now
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« Reply #54 on: 21:40:32, 02-05-2007 » |
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Don't think I saw the realism discussion - was this on another thread? Yes, the 'few naive questions' one, about the question of whether 'suspension of disbelief' applies in the context of music Spotted some very interesting-looking stuff there from Tim R-J but haven't had a chance to read it properly yet. Gotta go soon - haven't eaten yet. Also trying to choose extracts to fit with some short comments on 'my favourite NMC releases' - will post link when it's all up online - it's actually not unrelated to the subject of how to express your own positive reaction to music in a way that's likely to interest someone else ... |
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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martle
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« Reply #55 on: 21:51:45, 02-05-2007 » |
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rm, thanks for lobbing a nice, easy, uncontentious thread title into the r3ok batting zone- jeez. What makes a good piece of music? My best, but very imperfect answer to that is: A sonic object, whose aesthetic intent, practical means and rendering marry together to the extent that they collectively transcend the sum of their parts; and that the result openly invites mediation through performance, and (to acknowledge Richard's important earlier point) perception, to the extent that its meanings and resonances can be, perceptually, limitless. I'd like to suggest that Peter Grimes is one such work, given the level of enthusiasm and the astonishing array of responses it has generated on another thread; but the existence of libretto/ text/ plot in that work probably muddies the waters too much. Even so, I think it may demonstrate my point... |
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Green. Always green.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #56 on: 21:55:47, 02-05-2007 » |
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My best, but very imperfect answer to that is: A sonic object, whose aesthetic intent, practical means and rendering marry together to the extent that they collectively transcend the sum of their parts; and that the result openly invites mediation through performance, Just one thought here, martle - where would that leave certain electronic music (that which doesn't involve live electronic performance)? |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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martle
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« Reply #57 on: 22:03:32, 02-05-2007 » |
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My best, but very imperfect answer to that is: A sonic object, whose aesthetic intent, practical means and rendering marry together to the extent that they collectively transcend the sum of their parts; and that the result openly invites mediation through performance, Just one thought here, martle - where would that leave certain electronic music (that which doesn't involve live electronic performance)? Ian I thought about that. I intended the word 'rendering' to cover the realization of such work by the composer (or, indeed, his/her 'technicians'). I also had in mind the idea of 'rendering' being applicable to improvised performance. |
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Green. Always green.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #58 on: 22:16:35, 02-05-2007 » |
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I'd like to suggest that Peter Grimes is one such work, given the level of enthusiasm and the astonishing array of responses it has generated on another thread; but the existence of libretto/ text/ plot in that work probably muddies the waters too much. Even so, I think it may demonstrate my point... Well, you say that, but I'm sorry to say I haven't been getting along with it very well. The first time I was prevented by the outside world from getting past the first interlude. The second time (last night) I fell asleep during the first interlude, was awoken by the chorus after it and decided to call it a day. (Ollie will confirm I had a hard day yesterday, or at least confirm that I left a bar before closing time, which must mean something.) The third time (today) I got about halfway through. Now I didn't have a copy of the libretto on hand, so no doubt much passed me by while I was trying to hear the words, but I'm afraid it still strikes me as setting commonplace words in a commonplace and even slipshod way. In other words not at all a "good piece of music" as far as I'm concerned. Yet there are many who find it deeply fascinating and moving. (And maybe I will too one day.) This would seem to relate to t_i_n's point about the criteria being objective, while the application of them by individual hearers is subjective: we might agree to prefer music which (and these are my most important criteria I suppose) erases the distinction between intellect and emotions by proposing a new and work-specific unity between its poetic and structural character to music which consists of half-baked platitudes sloppily expressed in poorly stitched-together formal elements (not that I'd be that harsh about PG!) but we might not agree at all about which is which. |
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #59 on: 22:18:05, 02-05-2007 » |
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I thought about that. I intended the word 'rendering' to cover the realization of such work by the composer (or, indeed, his/her 'technicians'). I also had in mind the idea of 'rendering' being applicable to improvised performance. Sure - I was thinking more in terms of 'mediation through performance'? Not looking to pick holes, just wondering how this could be expanded to cover music whose performance (assuming one believes there is virtue in putting on pure tape pieces in live concerts) consists simply of pressing an on switch? Though, I suppose the choosing of playback equipment, positioning of speakers, setting of levels, etc., etc., might also count as a form of mediation, even if they don't take place in real time? |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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