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Author Topic: At Least Ninety-Six Crackpot Interpretations  (Read 11251 times)
Baz
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« Reply #135 on: 15:37:03, 12-05-2008 »


The time has come for us to make a confession: We are not musical at all, and lack all discrimination! We have listened carefully to those four passages which the Member has evidently spent much time and trouble preparing, and we are - honestly - unable to hear any significant difference between example 1 and example 4!!!! Perhaps though we are listening out for the wrong things and other Members will be luckier.


I am really quite astonished Mr Grew, and cannot readily accept such self-effacement! I urge you to listen again to my Example 2, and then immediately to my Example 3. Only if, then, you continue to tell me that you cannot hear a difference will I even think of believing your own words ("We are not musical at all, and lack all discrimination")!

Go for it SYD!!!

Baz
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Baz
Guest
« Reply #136 on: 16:03:18, 12-05-2008 »

In view of Mr Grew's last edit, let me clarify: Example 2 is the RH as heard in Example 1, while Example 3 is the RH as heard in Example 4. If the Member is able to hear a difference between Exs 2 and 3, it must logically follow that he must equally be able to hear the same difference between exs 1 and 4.

If he cannot, then I shall be very surprised indeed.

Baz
« Last Edit: 18:39:24, 12-05-2008 by Baz » Logged
Baz
Guest
« Reply #137 on: 19:31:15, 12-05-2008 »

...If "Cut-C" means a C with a vertical line through it that is not the case in our Schirmer edition which has an uncut C! Perhaps some kind Member can clear this point up, and also say whether the "molto legato" is original...

Mr Grew raises a significant and interesting question here re Chopin's Etude Op. 25 no. 2.

I have two rather battered editions that both use the cut-C signature, but others (including his) do not. Indeed the early 1837 Schlesinger edition does not, although it carries the clear metronome marking of Minim = 112 (which clarifies that the pulse is the minim). Here is the first page:



All the Etudes in this edition can be viewed online at http://chopin.lib.uchicago.edu/ together with many other early editions of other genres. (From the initial page, browse the collection and navigate through to the works required - when the first page is displayed there is a drop-down menu for navigation through the piece.)

It can be seen that the 'molto legato' indeed is original, but of equal interest are the really long sweeping phrase markings. Also the Ped. indications are clear and unambiguous (whether or not this is how Liszt played it - and he must have had really big hands to manage the leaps in the LH while holding down the first notes in each bar!).

Baz
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Sydney Grew
Guest
« Reply #138 on: 07:49:52, 13-05-2008 »

We thank the Member for the valuable pointer to the early editions of Chopin; but apart from that there is little we can add. Our Schirmer edition has one not quite so long sweeping phrase marked over the first three full bars - not four as in the Schlesinger edition - but after that our editor seems to have tired because there are no further phrase marks in the entire piece. The pedal indications are almost the same but again not quite.

Here is the "work" of an Austrian crackpot - rather foppish - who arranged some (specifically five) of Bach's fugues for string quartet. Had synthesizers existed in his day he would indubitably have used them instead. Actually we do not think he deserves much credit, because all he seems to have done is to copy the four voices, assigning one to each instrument of the quartet. A further and not inconsiderable element of crackpottery is contributed through the performance, which in this recording is about six times faster than the correct tempo for this fugue.
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Baz
Guest
« Reply #139 on: 08:26:47, 13-05-2008 »

We thank the Member for the valuable pointer to the early editions of Chopin; but apart from that there is little we can add. Our Schirmer edition has one not quite so long sweeping phrase marked over the first three full bars - not four as in the Schlesinger edition - but after that our editor seems to have tired because there are no further phrase marks in the entire piece. The pedal indications are almost the same but again not quite.

Here is the "work" of an Austrian crackpot - rather foppish - who arranged some (specifically five) of Bach's fugues for string quartet. Had synthesizers existed in his day he would indubitably have used them instead. Actually we do not think he deserves much credit, because all he seems to have done is to copy the four voices, assigning one to each instrument of the quartet. A further and not inconsiderable element of crackpottery is contributed through the performance, which in this recording is about six times faster than the correct tempo for this fugue.


Well - "6-times" the correct tempo is a bit exaggerated. It is a little less than twice the correct tempo by my reckoning (but that is more than enough to validate your point). But the 'fop' got a wrong note didn't he?! In the penultimate bar, the 'tenor' (viola) plays a D# on the second quaver instead of a B! Now this destroys the logic of using the second half of the Subject as the episodic material - the 'fop' being here content to sabotage this imitative development just to place a harmonic nuance (of his own making) into the final cadence. Crackpot indeed!

Baz
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Baz
Guest
« Reply #140 on: 09:05:02, 13-05-2008 »

Here is the "work" of an Austrian crackpot - rather foppish - who arranged some (specifically five) of Bach's fugues for string quartet. Had synthesizers existed in his day he would indubitably have used them instead. Actually we do not think he deserves much credit, because all he seems to have done is to copy the four voices, assigning one to each instrument of the quartet. A further and not inconsiderable element of crackpottery is contributed through the performance, which in this recording is about six times faster than the correct tempo for this fugue.


Since this piece is Alla breve, does the member feel that THIS is a better tempo, or should he prefer it to move even a little brisker?

Baz
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Sydney Grew
Guest
« Reply #141 on: 10:38:24, 13-05-2008 »

Since this piece is Alla breve, does the member feel that THIS is a better tempo, or should he prefer it to move even a little brisker?

Certainly not brisker; rather a good deal more the other way. Once again Mr. Iron's performance is obviously the work of a master executant profoundly steeped in the music of the early eighteenth century and it sounds eminently suitable for performance as a congregation dechurches.

But our own idea of this fugue is quite a bit slower again - we wish to savour all Bach's verticalities to the full! and although frightfully crackpot we know we apprehend therefrom no sense of funereality. Give it a listen! (Rapidshare or Sendspace.)
« Last Edit: 14:44:04, 13-05-2008 by Sydney Grew » Logged
Baz
Guest
« Reply #142 on: 17:19:03, 13-05-2008 »

...But the 'fop' got a wrong note didn't he?! In the penultimate bar, the 'tenor' (viola) plays a D# on the second quaver instead of a B! Now this destroys the logic of using the second half of the Subject as the episodic material - the 'fop' being here content to sabotage this imitative development just to place a harmonic nuance (of his own making) into the final cadence. Crackpot indeed!

Baz

..but we must remember that the lowest note on the viola is C, so the B would have been out of range. So why did he succumb to the then-current rave for string quartet as a medium for music not designed for the purpose? What a 'fop'!

Baz
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Sydney Grew
Guest
« Reply #143 on: 10:46:51, 14-05-2008 »

To-day we reach Bach in E flat and in particular his prelude in that key from the first Book: rapidshare and sendspace.

We do not much care for this work; perhaps it is very early, or corrupt, or a transcription of a lesser man's labour. Tovey tells us that the original purpose of the runs at the beginning was to find out, in Bach's own phrase, "whether the organ [sic] has good lungs." The "well-tempered clavier" seems rather to have been in so many cases originally a "well-tempered organ"!
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Baz
Guest
« Reply #144 on: 14:10:51, 14-05-2008 »

To-day we reach Bach in E flat and in particular his prelude in that key from the first Book: rapidshare and sendspace.

We do not much care for this work; perhaps it is very early, or corrupt, or a transcription of a lesser man's labour. Tovey tells us that the original purpose of the runs at the beginning was to find out, in Bach's own phrase, "whether the organ [sic] has good lungs." The "well-tempered clavier" seems rather to have been in so many cases originally a "well-tempered organ"!


Oh dear Mr Grew!  Sad Too much 'electronic inputting of notes' perhaps? You really must, please, take a great work for what it is (rather than what you feel others 'think' it is). Even Tovey correctly describes this movement as "a Toccata and Double Fugue" (which, of course, it is). The problem is that unless it is actually played like one it does not sound like one. Vibrating guitars hardly bring out the best of this great work do they?

It will not have espcaped your attention (especially since you have here grappled with every single note in the piece) that (as Tovey advises) the work , like othes in the collection, introduces a second theme to work against the first; and that, furthermore, Bach here plays with inversion and also with invertible counterpoint at the 11th. This is, therefore, no mean feat of creativity and endurance is it? Let us forget Tovey's stab about seeing "whether the organ has good lungs" - there being no evidence I know of that associated such a remark with this piece (clearly, in my view, written expressly to evince the resonances and tuning of the harpsichord, not the organ!).

The best we should offer, I feel, is a real performance by an expert upon the correct instrument (tuned according to standards of the day in order to bring out the particular colours of the keys being used). I must therefore offer here such a performance for reconsideration of this absolutely superb and excitingly-constructed piece - highly unusual as it is in being a 'Toccata' masquerading under the umbrella term "Prelude". Only in this form of presentation can one really get a grasp of the expansiveness and depth of Bach's structural thinking:

CLICK
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Sydney Grew
Guest
« Reply #145 on: 15:37:54, 14-05-2008 »

We must agree that that of Leonhardt is a very good performance. He really gets into the "swing" during the final third of the work does he not.

Having noted that his chosen tempo was only slightly slower than that of the crackpot version (something over four minutes), curious for a comparison we put on Wanda. Well! she takes near enough to six, but the result is less concentrated and cohesive than Gustav's. In fact we do not know what all her unexpected ritardandos and hesitations are intended to convey; their expressive function if indeed they have one is wholly wasted upon us! It simply sounds as though she is picking her way through after the manner of Mr. Berber, but that cannot really be the case can it?

In addition, since the Member has recommended Gustav's "tuning according to the standards of the day" perhaps he will be able to tell whether she too uses something of that kind - our own unmusical sense is not acute enough to say.
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Baz
Guest
« Reply #146 on: 17:16:52, 14-05-2008 »

We must agree that that of Leonhardt is a very good performance. He really gets into the "swing" during the final third of the work does he not.

Having noted that his chosen tempo was only slightly slower than that of the crackpot version (something over four minutes), curious for a comparison we put on Wanda. Well! she takes near enough to six, but the result is less concentrated and cohesive than Gustav's. In fact we do not know what all her unexpected ritardandos and hesitations are intended to convey; their expressive function if indeed they have one is wholly wasted upon us! It simply sounds as though she is picking her way through after the manner of Mr. Berber, but that cannot really be the case can it?

In addition, since the Member has recommended Gustav's "tuning according to the standards of the day" perhaps he will be able to tell whether she too uses something of that kind - our own unmusical sense is not acute enough to say.


Wanda's performance is just too staid and eccentric for me to take it any more seriously than the electronic file you originally posted this morning. I cannot believe the reason why she plays it so intolerably slowly is because the notes are otherwise too difficult for her to play properly. So the actual reason must, therefore, be due to a complete misjudgment of the piece itself. If she had known (or understood) that the movement was actually a 'toccata' (embedding as toccatas did at this time a fugue) she might have thought of making it more exciting as a display piece.

With regard to the instrument: it sounds as dead as it ever should have done, being constructed (as they were in the 'Goble' days) of railway lines held together with sleepers. The soundboard is hardly permitted to vibrate at all (so great is the tension placed upon it).

With regard to tuning, I think we can assume confidently that it is exactly (with the aid of scientific instrumentation) adjusted to accord with exact 12-tone Equal Temperament.

As for Mr Berben - well, watch this space!

Baz
« Last Edit: 17:20:57, 14-05-2008 by Baz » Logged
Sydney Grew
Guest
« Reply #147 on: 09:50:18, 15-05-2008 »

Members will note how adroitly we again and again deflect Mr. Iron's adverse criticisms away from ourselves and onto Wanda who having expired in 1959 is better equipped to deal with them. Interestingly we see that in 1909 she published a book entitled Musique Ancienne; we must try to get hold of it.

To-day's crackpot offering is the E flat major Fugue in three parts from Bach's first Book (rapidshare or sendspace).

We say three parts, but in a fact a delightfully effective fourth voice enters only in the final bar. Tovey tells us that he has analysed no fewer than seven "episodes" within this little fugue, but we think that is a case of analysis overdone to a considerable degree. In any case the best part is the jolly sequence beginning halfway through bar seven and continuing until the end of bar nine, being then repeated redistributed in bars twelve to fourteen.
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Baz
Guest
« Reply #148 on: 11:09:02, 15-05-2008 »

Members will note how adroitly we again and again deflect Mr. Iron's adverse criticisms away from ourselves and onto Wanda who having expired in 1959 is better equipped to deal with them. Interestingly we see that in 1909 she published a book entitled Musique Ancienne; we must try to get hold of it.

To-day's crackpot offering is the E flat major Fugue in three parts from Bach's first Book (rapidshare or sendspace).

We say three parts, but in a fact a delightfully effective fourth voice enters only in the final bar. Tovey tells us that he has analysed no fewer than seven "episodes" within this little fugue, but we think that is a case of analysis overdone to a considerable degree. In any case the best part is the jolly sequence beginning halfway through bar seven and continuing until the end of bar nine, being then repeated redistributed in bars twelve to fourteen.


Well Mr Grew, I do not think that was so 'crackpot' after all. Given the nature of the 'default sounds' and 'timbres' that we have come now to expect as being 'normal', I have to say that the tempo was exactly correct for this piece. I might have preferred that telling rest in the subject to have been observed rather than completely ignored (it has an important musical function in providing articulation for the following upbeat, would you not agree?). But otherwise it seems to me a perfectly sound 'synthetic' (if not indeed 'anaesthetical') cobbling together of the raw materials embodied within the composer's thought processes.

NOW...what about Wanda?!

Baz
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Baz
Guest
« Reply #149 on: 11:30:19, 15-05-2008 »

...and funnily enough Mr Berben also (though to a lesser extent) pleases with his performance of this fugue! It is (in my experience) uncharacteristic of him to 'bring off' a complex piece in this way. (We can only assume that the majority of his performances were captured on tape shortly after time spent imbibing a liquid that, funnily enough, sounds identical to his name.)

Here, however, he presents a mostly credible performance: apart from two clear misreadings (that are only likely to offend those of us who know about them), the only aberrations seem to be a) the rhythmic nonsense he gives us in bar 34 (for which there is no rhyme or reason), and b) his poor realization of the final cadence (if only he could have provided something equal to his powerful opening!).

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