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Baz
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« Reply #105 on: 21:31:11, 07-05-2008 » |
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I wonder how Angela plays it (no doubt very musically and sensitively)? Angela is very quiet and very slow lasting altogether four minutes and two seconds. We find her unsatisfactory! although she is good in the French Suites. Compare Svyatoslaff who takes only two minutes twenty-five seconds in a performance of exactly the same length as but much more disciplined than that of Master Berben; because of its steady beat it is the best of this bunch we feel. But let us not omit Wanda; here she is, taking three minutes twenty-three seconds (which as it happens is the same timing as Number 2 Crackpot) and again doing some fancy business with the manuals. She does also make one or two peculiar pauses in the Berben manner, but we can almost forgive her that after her great spread chord at the climax. What all four of these executants miss in our opinion is that the final two bars of the work sound better when played a little faster than the rest, so as to express a feeling of happy relaxation after the summit just now conquered as it were. While each performance has certain things of interest, I remain unconvinced by them all! Why the overall 'feel' cannot be more like this famous extract from BWV 208... HEREI cannot imagine. Just because it is in a 'minor key', sentimentality seems to take over, and everything has to become gloomy. Why? Baz |
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #106 on: 10:30:04, 08-05-2008 » |
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Here is Bach's B flat Prelude, number twenty-one in the second book ( rapidshare and sendspace). What a big ritardando the computer decided to make in this signally crackpot interpretation! All our editions have in bar 63 f-g flat-e flat in the second beat of the alto part, but we suspect that f-g flat-e natural would be better, or perhaps even f-g natural-e natural. |
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Baz
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« Reply #107 on: 11:08:11, 08-05-2008 » |
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Here is Bach's B flat Prelude, number twenty-one in the second book ( rapidshare and sendspace). What a big ritardando the computer decided to make in this signally crackpot interpretation! All our editions have in bar 63 f-g flat-e flat in the second beat of the alto part, but we suspect that f-g flat-e natural would be better, or perhaps even f-g natural-e natural. Interesting! On a textual point: Bach specifically wrote in the Gb and did not cancel the Eb - so your editions are correct. But this (surely) leads on to a matter of overall interpretation, specifically regarding the Tempo. In the bar in question, Bach (as he often does) here breaks with traditional ethics (during his period) and modulates by more than one degree in a single move. So while bar 62 establishes G minor, the questioned bar 63 now takes the key straight into Bb Minor (even though this becomes merely a 'modal inflection' for what turns out to be a return to the home key of Bb Major by the end of bar 64). Now in order for these subtle modulations to have a proper effect, the tempo cannot possibly be too fast. The computerised performance above delivers a tempo in excess of dotted quaver = 100. This is lunatic note-bashing only. If the piece is played no faster than dotted quaver = 72, not only do all these quite subtle modulations make complete sense, lending great expression to the music, but it is then discovered that this movement is in reality song-like, and the emphasis then naturally falls upon the phrasing and lyricism of melody rather than merely upon rhythm. At a sensitive speed, there would be no need for that completely STUPID ritardando in bar 75 either - the more relaxed tempo would actually enhance Bach's subtle harmonies here instead of working against them. Baz |
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #108 on: 12:02:37, 08-05-2008 » |
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[...] Just because it is in a 'minor key', sentimentality seems to take over, and everything has to become gloomy. Why? Perhaps Wolfgang M. knew the answer. . . . |
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Baz
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« Reply #109 on: 14:30:02, 08-05-2008 » |
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[...] Just because it is in a 'minor key', sentimentality seems to take over, and everything has to become gloomy. Why? Perhaps Wolfgang M. knew the answer. . . . Really Mr Grew! Surely we might look to somebody a little less 'foppish'? The Prelude and Fugue in Bb Minor (Book 1) do not have to sound and feel like a) a Funeral Prelude, followed by b) a Requiem Mass - just because the key is Bb Minor. One possibility that occurs to me is this: the Prelude can sound tuneful and engaging; and the Fugue can sound strong, resilient and definitive. The kind of thing I have in mind is something like the following: Prelude and Fugue in Bb Minor (Book 1)Baz |
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Turfan Fragment
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« Reply #110 on: 16:48:38, 08-05-2008 » |
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The discussion of modulation to closely related keys in Bach is one I've tried to bring to my students as early as possible in the counterpoint curriculum.
Bach is at liberty to move to all the keys closely related to the home key, to wit: the home key's relative key (ie the one with the same key signature) and those with key signatures adding or subtracting exactly one accidental from that of the home key. Also, any of these key areas, though almost exclusively the home key, may be 'inflected' as you say by the parallel mode. The major keys are far more likely to be inflected than the minor ones*.
So in A major, one might see some a minor, but the closely related keys are f# minor, D major, b minor, E major, or c# minor. Everything else takes a bit of doing, is the exception rather than the rule.
However, that can still lead to some remarkable situations. Witness the Canon alla settima from the Goldberg variations. In the second strain, the music moves quickly from g minor to f minor (easy to justify since these keys are indeed a 7th apart) -- but they are related to one more distantly than the above rule would indicate! What is f minor doing in the land of g minor (the home key) anyway? The proper key of the subtonic is F major, not minor.
The explanation, of course, is twofold. One, Bach decided to insist that the Canon at this point be one of real imitation, so the intervals in g minor had to be preserved a minor seventh higher. Two, both keys are relatable by the above rule to Eb major, in which they are the key of the third degree and the second degree, respectively. And Eb major is the first cadential arrival of that second strain, in keeping with the scheme of the theme: the second strain always moves to the key of the sixth degree, i.e., e minor or Eb major depending on the mode of the variation.
*the tonicization of the subdominant (i.e. turning tonic into a momentary dominant) is often misunderstood as a modal inflection of minor keys. Another 'trivial' exception is the well-known tierce de picardie.
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #111 on: 10:11:02, 09-05-2008 » |
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[...] the Prelude can sound tuneful and engaging; and the Fugue can sound strong, resilient and definitive. The performance the Member recommends besides showing enviable ability is effective and quite convincing we find. But how to convince Angela Wanda Svyatoslaff and the rest thereof? To-day we present the B flat major Fugue from Book II ( rapidshare and sendspace); it is another raw and crackpot performance but at least it is clear! Tovey draws attention to the slurs marked by Bach he says in bars 3 and 4, and tells us that they are self-evidently to be supplied on all appearances of that figure. These will be the Affekten again to which Mr. Fragment has already drawn attention in the case of the F sharp minor Fugue from Book I above and to which all executants there were heard to adhere with the notable exception of the incomparable Wanda. Tovey advocates also what he calls a " Bebung touch," to be applied to repeated crotchets in the bass. Well! we in our ignorance had to look that up in Percy Scholes, and found that it means "a tremolo effect obtained by rocking the finger on a key of a clavichord." Sometimes we as a former string player have found ourselves doing that on the piano but it has of course no effect whatsoever, so Tovey - writing for pianists - must have been getting at something rather other; would any pianist Member like to say? |
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« Last Edit: 10:50:38, 09-05-2008 by Sydney Grew »
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Baz
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« Reply #112 on: 14:25:12, 09-05-2008 » |
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Before listening to Mr Grew's latst offering...some news! Today - being completely alone - I have become "creative". It occurred to me that 'cobbling together' a lunatic Bach file could not really be that daunting, so I turned on my Mac and - away I went. Just one single hour working upon the D Minor Prelude (Book 1) produced a result! I feel sure that, completely crackpot that it may be, it is nowhere near as crackpot as anything Mr Grew has yet offered! In truth, it manages (in my opinion) to avoid all the dangers presented by his, and manages (while being completely potty) to avoid emulating things like 'pubs', 'discos', 'popcorn factories', 'gigs' and the like. I particularly like the 'continuo strings'! See what you think of it - I'm really quite proud of myself!  .............. Prelude in D Minor (Book 1) |
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« Last Edit: 14:32:43, 09-05-2008 by Baz »
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« Reply #113 on: 14:30:34, 09-05-2008 » |
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Well Baz, so this is what you get up to on your own is it  I think that Dm prelude is great !! Let' s have some more  A |
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Baz
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« Reply #114 on: 14:51:44, 09-05-2008 » |
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[...] the Prelude can sound tuneful and engaging; and the Fugue can sound strong, resilient and definitive. The performance the Member recommends besides showing enviable ability is effective and quite convincing we find. But how to convince Angela Wanda Svyatoslaff and the rest thereof? Very simple Mr Grew - we just inform them that they all play it too slowly! Baz |
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Baz
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« Reply #115 on: 15:36:28, 09-05-2008 » |
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...Tovey draws attention to the slurs marked by Bach he says in bars 3 and 4, and tells us that they are self-evidently to be supplied on all appearances of that figure. These will be the Affekten again to which Mr. Fragment has already drawn attention in the case of the F sharp minor Fugue from Book I above and to which all executants there were heard to adhere with the notable exception of the incomparable Wanda. That is indeed what they are, and Tovey was entirely correct in his description of Bach's manuscript as can be seen here...  Tovey advocates also what he calls a "Bebung touch," to be applied to repeated crotchets in the bass. Well! we in our ignorance had to look that up in Percy Scholes, and found that it means "a tremolo effect obtained by rocking the finger on a key of a clavichord." Sometimes we as a former string player have found ourselves doing that on the piano but it has of course no effect whatsoever, so Tovey - writing for pianists - must have been getting at something rather other; would any pianist Member like to say?
Pianists will not know what you are talking about! Scholes speaks of the clavichord (not the piano), and it is an effect I use a lot on mine. By making a vibrato movement upon a held key, the string produces a genuine vibrato (since the tangent that is stopping the string is directly connected with the key being 'oscillated'). Baz |
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Baz
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« Reply #116 on: 17:35:48, 09-05-2008 » |
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...And here is my crackpot 'take' on the D Minor Fugue (Book 1)... D Minor Fugue |
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« Reply #117 on: 20:08:29, 09-05-2008 » |
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Pianists will not know what you are talking about! Scholes speaks of the clavichord (not the piano), and it is an effect I use a lot on mine. By making a vibrato movement upon a held key, the string produces a genuine vibrato (since the tangent that is stopping the string is directly connected with the key being 'oscillated'). Although it's certainly impossible on a piano (at least, from the key) it is certainly a term used from time to time in the world of pianism (not only by Tovey)... to denote a sustained touch imitating the clavichord effect, we can only suppose. We assume Tovey to have been referring to a very sustained treatment of the repeated crotchets, as elaborations of a single note rather than entities in their own right. |
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« Reply #118 on: 22:47:48, 09-05-2008 » |
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...And here is my crackpot 'take' on the D Minor Fugue (Book 1)... D Minor FugueInteresting Baz, I enjoyed the trem on the last chord... not quite your usual style .  What next I wonder? the D major Bk 2 ?? |
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #119 on: 11:32:01, 10-05-2008 » |
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It occurred to me that 'cobbling together' a lunatic Bach file could not really be that daunting, so I turned on my Mac and - away I went. We are quite dazzled by the Member's sudden success; evidently he has been caught by the bug and we eagerly await his electric version of the remaining ninety-four pieces (and indeed others' of others). In the mean time here is a version of Schoenberg's renowned " Farben" (" Colours") converted to choral ode by a French odd-ball. |
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