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Author Topic: At Least Ninety-Six Crackpot Interpretations  (Read 11251 times)
Sydney Grew
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« Reply #120 on: 12:15:11, 10-05-2008 »

To-day's crackpot Bach is the Prelude in B flat minor from Book II, a fine mature work flowing in gentle quavers, and worthy of the tremendous fugue which follows it and which we shall hear to-morrow, yet - since some notes are sustained through more than three bars - quite unsuitable for the clavichord or piano! (Rapidshare or Sendspace)
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A
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« Reply #121 on: 14:36:16, 10-05-2008 »

I would be interested in the the opinion of our Bach experts to this....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t89O9T0fEhI

A Grin
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Baz
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« Reply #122 on: 19:40:26, 10-05-2008 »

It occurred to me that 'cobbling together' a lunatic Bach file could not really be that daunting, so I turned on my Mac and - away I went.

We are quite dazzled by the Member's sudden success; evidently he has been caught by the bug and we eagerly await his electric version of the remaining ninety-four pieces (and indeed others' of others).


Oh - go on then! Here is the Prelude in D Minor from Book 2 (I hope nobody thinks this is remotely serious?). I have taken the liberty of reconstructing some of the 'missing counterpoint'!...

Prelude in D Minor (Book 2)

Baz
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Turfan Fragment
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Formerly known as Chafing Dish


« Reply #123 on: 19:55:49, 10-05-2008 »

I would be interested in the the opinion of our Bach experts to this....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t89O9T0fEhI

A Grin
It is what it is, and infectious at that.. I'm not so sure Bach himself would have objected, per se, even if the style would have been unfamiliar to him. Not sure if we should care what he would think.
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A
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« Reply #124 on: 21:03:31, 10-05-2008 »

Sounds a bit like a prepared piano at first Baz !! cool  Grin

I like the left hand runs and 'the bells ... the bells'


A Kiss
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Baz
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« Reply #125 on: 21:09:17, 10-05-2008 »

Sounds a bit like a prepared piano at first Baz !! cool  Grin

I like the left hand runs and 'the bells ... the bells'


A Kiss


It should only be attempted by string players who can already play Tchaik's 4th symphony with effortless pizz. in the 3rd movt.

Baz  Grin Grin Grin
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A
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« Reply #126 on: 21:48:10, 10-05-2008 »

I can !! I can !!!  Grin

A
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #127 on: 11:27:05, 11-05-2008 »

To-day's crackpot contribution is the B flat minor Fugue from Bach's Book II (rapidshare or sendspace).

This long serious and admirably complex fugue begins with statements of the subject and counter-subject from all four parts in turn; later on each of the four parts in turn plays everything upside down! We are thankful though that Bach did not go the whole hog and call for the themes to be played backwards as well, in the style of Schönberg for instance. Certain bars - 52 and 53 for instance - already look and sound quite Schönbergian enough. Yet it is praiseworthy is it not that everything in the work "hangs together" and bears some relation to everything else in the work; the "organic whole" you know which is the sine qua non of a Work of Art.
« Last Edit: 07:46:28, 12-05-2008 by Sydney Grew » Logged
Baz
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« Reply #128 on: 19:07:30, 11-05-2008 »

As an exercise in sheer decadence, I offer here a slightly crazy version of the Fugue in D Minor (WTC 2), transcribed/reworked as a Sonata movement for 3 soloists and continuo...

D Minor Fugue (Book 2)

Baz  Grin
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #129 on: 09:03:09, 12-05-2008 »

I have taken the liberty of reconstructing some of the 'missing counterpoint'!...

But we would advise the Member in his new-found enthusiasm for the electronic to think twice about adding originalities to Bach's incomparable own - by doing so he is entering uncharted waters is not he and who knows whither it may lead and how it may all end long before number ninety-six!

Since we have now heard Bach in C, Bach in F, and Bach in B flat, it is time for another Chopin interlude before modulating on to Bach in E flat-cum-D sharp. Here is Chopin's Presto Study in F minor opus 25 number 2. It is an interesting piece to play live, because one very soon learns that it is no use thinking about the detail - one has to permit the fingers to act automatically, under the control of if anything only one's previous practice sessions and the unconscious brain (rapidshare and sendspace).
« Last Edit: 09:04:44, 12-05-2008 by Sydney Grew » Logged
Baz
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« Reply #130 on: 09:08:58, 12-05-2008 »

I have taken the liberty of reconstructing some of the 'missing counterpoint'!...

But we would advise the Member in his new-found enthusiasm for the electronic to think twice about adding originalities to Bach's incomparable own - by doing so he is entering uncharted waters is not he and who knows whither it may lead and how it may all end long before number ninety-six!


The Member speaks as if he thinks - in his wildest dreams - that any of this is remotely serious. As the constructor and originator of this thread, he should know better!

Baz  Grin Grin Grin
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Bryn
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« Reply #131 on: 09:23:01, 12-05-2008 »

It occurred to me that 'cobbling together' a lunatic Bach file could not really be that daunting, so I turned on my Mac and - away I went.

We are quite dazzled by the Member's sudden success; evidently he has been caught by the bug and we eagerly await his electric version of the remaining ninety-four pieces (and indeed others' of others).


Oh - go on then! Here is the Prelude in D Minor from Book 2 (I hope nobody thinks this is remotely serious?). I have taken the liberty of reconstructing some of the 'missing counterpoint'!...

Prelude in D Minor (Book 2)

Baz

"Dat quite a massive improve'lence".

[See Anty for a translation.]
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Baz
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« Reply #132 on: 09:32:42, 12-05-2008 »


Since we have now heard Bach in C, Bach in F, and Bach in B flat, it is time for another Chopin interlude before modulating on to Bach in E flat-cum-D sharp. Here is Chopin's Presto Study in F minor opus 25 number 2. It is an interesting piece to play live, because one very soon learns that it is no use thinking about the detail - one has to permit the fingers to act automatically, under the control of if anything only one's previous practice sessions and the unconscious brain (rapidshare and sendspace).


The crackpottery here is no more than is heard in most 'real' performances - one of simply failing to understand at the outset Chopin's intentions! The outcome (as usual) is that the RH is tossed off as though it is in 6/4 (seemingly to match the perceived rhythm of the LH), and in consequence the dissonant returning notes seem thereby always to fall on the beat instead of off it.

The time-signature is Cut-C, and the RH clearly indicates groups of triplets. If these are played without the LH, it will be seen (taking bar 1, but also applying the findings to the remainder of the piece) that it is the consonant note C that accurs on each beat (and not the surrounding dissonant notes B-natural, E-flat and F-sharp). So, bearing in mind the time-signature, and also the tempo marking (Presto), the effect really should be a feeling of 2 beats in the bar, with a melodic emphasis upon the two consonant notes occurring upon each of the two main beats. The dissonant notes surrounding these should be merely decorative, and not emphatic.

Further, the LH, which is merely accompanimental throughout, adopts a clever cross-rhythm in which each main beat is split into triplet crotchets (presenting a patterning that is organised around, and articulative of, the two main beats). The subtlety is that this cross-rhythm is different from the cross-rhythm used in the RH. But how many performances attempt to clarify and present this subtlety - not many.

Why can't people simply do what they are told?!

Baz
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Baz
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« Reply #133 on: 13:01:39, 12-05-2008 »

As a follow-on to my last post, compare these electronic versions of Mr Grew's Chopin Study.

First, here is a 'straight' playback (not that unlike many live performances)...

Example 1

It sounds like a 6/8 piece with paired notes in the RH on each beat. The melody is therefore essentially 'dissonant' (since the appoggiaturas fall on the apparent main beats). And here is the RH only of the same performance:

Example 2

Now if the RH part is executed according to Chopin's written score, it should not sound like 6 groups of 2, but rather as 4 groups of 3, as here:

Example 3

When the LH is added to this version, it should be possible to hear an overall 3-against-2 combination between RH and LH (and real performers with any intellect should be able to make it sound more musical than this computer version):

Example 4

But why do so many players ignore, or fail to convey this subtlety of rhythmic design I wonder?

Baz
« Last Edit: 13:06:17, 12-05-2008 by Baz » Logged
Sydney Grew
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« Reply #134 on: 15:16:40, 12-05-2008 »

Some points in Mr. Iron's last two messages call for immediate response.

1)
Chopin's intentions!

Yes we do gather that he had a lot of cross-rhythms going - he loved that sort of thing as will be evident from this Study too (rapidshare or sendspace - threes against fours and coincidentally in the same key). But the only hints about Chopin's intentions we see in our score (apart from "play one note after the other") are a) the marking molto legato (which seems to call for a lack of emphasis) and b) Schumann's quoted description of Chopin's own playing of this Study: "How charming, how dreamy it was! Soft as the song of a sleeping child."

Arthur Friedheim in his notes to our edition maintains that "extreme smoothness and evenness are requisite in this Etude." He adds that Liszt hardly used the pedal but held down the lowest left-hand bass note in each hand until the next change and that "Chopin unquestionably performed the piece in the same manner." Mr. Friedheim then is worried about the left hand whereas it is the right hand which concerns Mr. Iron!

2)
The outcome (as usual) is that the RH is tossed off as though it is in 6/4 (seemingly to match the perceived rhythm of the LH), and in consequence the dissonant returning notes seem thereby always to fall on the beat instead of off it.

That is not the case in the crackpot version we presented earlier to-day. Each right-hand note is given exactly the same duration and attack as every other right-hand note. There is no emphasis on either the first note of the triplets, or on the notes corresponding to whatever the left-hand is doing. Any perceived emphasis arises solely from the relationship of the notes to one another.

It may help if we explain the circumstances of its production: the performance was put together twenty-three years ago, on a small specialized and primitive Japanese contraption for sequencing, at a time when MIDI sequencers were not yet readily available on the tiny P.C.s - lacking hard drives - of the day. (We intend next month to do Scryabine's sonatas properly in a much more modern way.)

We do accept however that Chopin had a reason for writing the right-hand triplets. We suppose that with cross-rhythms and triplets left right and centre he was attempting as he often did elsewhere to remove or at least confuse any sense of a regular beat, whether four to a bar or six to a bar! This is our main point of difference from Mr. Iron is it not?

3)
The time-signature is Cut-C

If "Cut-C" means a C with a vertical line through it that is not the case in our Schirmer edition which has an uncut C! Perhaps some kind Member can clear this point up, and also say whether the "molto legato" is original.

4)
The subtlety is that this cross-rhythm is different from the cross-rhythm used in the RH. But how many performances attempt to clarify and present this subtlety - not many.

We do not see the necessity of clarifying and presenting these aspects of the work which should - along with many other things - be as evident as everything else if the notes are played "straight."

5)
As a follow-on to my last post, compare these electronic versions of Mr Grew's Chopin Study.

The time has come for us to make a confession: We are not musical at all, and lack all discrimination! We have listened carefully to those four passages which the Member has evidently spent much time and trouble preparing, and we are - honestly - unable to hear any significant difference between example 1 and example 4!!!! Perhaps though we are listening out for the wrong things and other Members will be luckier.
« Last Edit: 15:55:45, 12-05-2008 by Sydney Grew » Logged
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