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Author Topic: At Least Ninety-Six Crackpot Interpretations  (Read 11251 times)
Baz
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« Reply #90 on: 11:31:42, 04-05-2008 »

Extract from my last post:

Quote
He sounds like a player I'd enjoy meeting, and hearing in concert...but I'd hope that the music is thoroughly learned before committing it to recording or concert. Smiley The beginning of the F# minor fugue, book 1, is one obvious place where it wasn't: there's are two or three extra beats inserted into the first appearance of the subject, during its final trill, with a huge rubato that doesn't sound deliberately planned. Then despite that slow and odd start, he burns through that whole fugue in 1'54", while my rendition takes 3'34" and Watchorn's is even more ruminative at 4'14". 3'49" for Glenn Gould.... At the least, Berben's rendition of this fugue is a shock to my neural system.

I do not know whether this is more strongly influenced by Crack or by Pot, but (for what it is worth) this is the performance to which reference is made...

F# Minor Fugue (Book 1)
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Formerly known as Chafing Dish


« Reply #91 on: 14:40:55, 04-05-2008 »

I would say that despite tempo issues (rubato theme, accelerations in the episodes) this is the most convincing of the Berbens I have heard here so far; he does make a case for that tempo as an alternative to the more pensive readings that I'm familiar with.

Where were the wrong notes? I don't think I heard one.  Lips sealed Lips sealed
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Baz
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« Reply #92 on: 14:52:10, 04-05-2008 »

I would say that despite tempo issues (rubato theme, accelerations in the episodes) this is the most convincing of the Berbens I have heard here so far; he does make a case for that tempo as an alternative to the more pensive readings that I'm familiar with.

Where were the wrong notes? I don't think I heard one.  Lips sealed Lips sealed

Although there were not too many here (thankfully), those that exists are real WHOPPERS!

1. Bar 12, LH, note 2 is played absurdly as B-natural instead of B#
2. Bar 33, LH, beats 5 and 6 yield totally wrongs notes - his fast tempo outstrips his hand control here!
3. Bar 38, the last stament of the Subject in the tonic incredibly presents here (RH, last 2 beats) A-naturals instead of A#s.

These are all really very amateurish errors you know.

Baz
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« Reply #93 on: 14:55:33, 04-05-2008 »

These are all really very amateurish errors you know.

Baz
Oh, thank you very much for that pleasant comment. They escaped a rather casual listening on my part.
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Baz
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« Reply #94 on: 15:54:59, 04-05-2008 »

These are all really very amateurish errors you know.

Baz
Oh, thank you very much for that pleasant comment. They escaped a rather casual listening on my part.

I cannot understand why he opts for a break-neck speed at all - what is wrong with the normal Alla Breve pacing?

Although it could perhaps (in retrospect) go a tiny bit more quickly, this is how I played it today (warts and all)...

CLICK HERE
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« Reply #95 on: 20:45:10, 04-05-2008 »

I cannot understand why he opts for a break-neck speed at all - what is wrong with the normal Alla Breve pacing?

Although it could perhaps (in retrospect) go a tiny bit more quickly, this is how I played it today (warts and all)...
Thank you for sharing that... when I taught that fugue two months ago in my counterpoint class, people were quite tickled by the alto entry in inversion, midway through, even though they didn't see/hear it until it was pointed out to them. Marvelous harmonic imagination, that old Sebastian!

I don't suggest that Berben's tempo is to be recommended to the exclusion of slower tempi, merely that he made for me an interesting case for tripping along with some alacrity -- provided the fingers hold up. Your tempo seems a good compromise.

What sort of instrument do you have there, Baz, and how is it tuned, if I may ask? That is some kind of non-equal temperament is it not?
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Baz
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« Reply #96 on: 22:23:12, 04-05-2008 »

Thank you for sharing that... when I taught that fugue two months ago in my counterpoint class, people were quite tickled by the alto entry in inversion, midway through, even though they didn't see/hear it until it was pointed out to them. Marvelous harmonic imagination, that old Sebastian!

Indeed - and also the bass entry inverted just before the final statement. He manages to integrate them so skilfully that often they pass by quite unnoticed.

My instrument is really just a 'practice' organ, and although being conventional for the player actually uses good quality sampled organ sounds rather than real pipes. The tuning remains ET, though I sometimes change the pitch down to kammerton and sometimes up to chorton.

Baz
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #97 on: 13:44:14, 05-05-2008 »

Although it could perhaps (in retrospect) go a tiny bit more quickly . . .

We find this F sharp minor fugue quite fascinating for a number of reasons. The first is the great range of speed between the different executants. Here (rapidshare or sendspace) is "number two crackpot" who takes 3 minutes 38 seconds but nevertheless manages to convey a sense of more urgency than any of the others!

Here and much less urgent is Angela on the piano - she takes 3 minutes 10 seconds.

But here in the most striking and satisfying performance of all is Wanda, who really taking her time about it goes on for 4 minutes 23 seconds - which is less than half the speed of Mr. Berben is not it.

We believe that executants should take at least three minutes over this fine work, if only so as to permit all Bach's verticalities - which change with every successive quaver - to sound properly without a sense of immoderate haste.

The subject of this fugue while not particularly melodic has two noteworthy features. The first is harmonic, consisting of the major third (A sharp) and augmented fourth (B sharp) in the second bar. These startling deviations from the diatonic permit Bach to construct correspondingly startling harmonies at many points later in the work, beginning as early as bar 4 when they are taken up by the counter-subject. The second noteworthy feature is in bar three and is rhythmic; first we have the C sharp (on a strong beat), the B (on a weak beat), and the A (on a strong beat), immediately followed by the reversal of that, with the C sharp on a weak beat, the B this time on a strong beat, and the A on a weak beat. It is simple but it is the essence of music, and returns again and again in the course of this work!


Tovey rightly says that the "whole Fugue requires the finest cantabile legato in every detail of its harmony and counterpoint." But he also says that "the figure of the counter-subject is obviously to be slurred in pairs of quavers." Well! That is not obvious to us at all!!

Here as contrast are a few bars from Fugue 21 of Book II, in B flat major.


We see in the bass the same rising motif but without the chromatics, and we see in the treble exactly the same falling motif from the counter-subject of the other. We wonder which fugue was written - or rather finished - first!
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« Reply #98 on: 14:16:12, 05-05-2008 »

Thanks for your post, Syd

But he also says that "the figure of the counter-subject is obviously to be slurred in pairs of quavers." Well! That is not obvious to us at all!!

Affektenlehre. These are little 'sigh' motives, and of course each sigh must be separated from the next by an intake of breath. It is only 'obvious' to those versed in said Lehre because it's one of the first such gestural instructions one learns.
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Baz
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« Reply #99 on: 15:25:41, 05-05-2008 »

Some interesting performances there Mr Grew - thank you. As I'm sure you would have suspected, I much prefer Angela's approach, if only because her overall timing is almost exactly the same as mine. If the piece goes more quickly it loses its affect. And if it goes more slowly (as in Wanda's performance) it never manages to possess one at all!

I do not, I must admit, like Wanda's performance at all: it lacks any sense of gentle rhythmic flow, and places too much emphasis upon needless trickery (to the detriment of the music's structure and style). I suspect her approach rides upon the back of a generation of piano-playing Bachists, and that when confronted with a plucked instrument with no easy dynamic variation such needs to be constantly 'manufactured'. Hence the first bass entry is played as a 'solo' with a 16' pitched manual. At another point in the piece, the upper voice carrying the Subject is similarly played 'solo' using an 8' + a 4' sound. None of this should be necessary if played in any way stylistically - the instrument itself can sing the melodies perfectly naturally - but not at the truly funerial pace delivered by this performance.

Angela is (to me) the most musical of the three - and funnily enough I don't in the slightest way feel that her piano-orientated approach at all injures the music. Even though this style of playing brings with it so much 'foreign baggage' (in particular an over-emphasis upon shaded dynamics, and a tendency to play the Subject always at a different dynamic level from the surrounding voices - but worst of all the irrepressible and clichéd use of overlong and overdone ritardandi) it does nonetheless stand up as a genuinely musical performance.

I don't feel your crackpot version warrants any serious comment at all (and I am sure you would not have invited any on its behalf) other than to congratulate it upon its total ignorance of everything about this music other than the correct default note pitches (which at least places it in a hugely superior category than that of the flying Dutchman).

Baz
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #100 on: 08:46:44, 06-05-2008 »

Bach in the B flat minor Prelude of his Book I piles note upon note upon note until it all arrives at some sort of awful climax. In this performance - a rare example of the higher crackpottery - his combinations are perhaps for the first time clearly audible (rapidshare - sendspace).
« Last Edit: 08:49:03, 06-05-2008 by Sydney Grew » Logged
Baz
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« Reply #101 on: 09:57:52, 06-05-2008 »

Bach in the B flat minor Prelude of his Book I piles note upon note upon note until it all arrives at some sort of awful climax. In this performance - a rare example of the higher crackpottery - his combinations are perhaps for the first time clearly audible (rapidshare - sendspace).


It is difficult to regard this as a performance, let alone a 'crackpot' one. After all the computer that produced it was responding exactly in the way that it was instructed.

For a truly CRACKPOT performance of this piece, I should refer you back to my earlier message #37, where our Dutchman is not playing according to what he has been instructed, but according exactly to HIS OWN brief. The result - in my opinion - pales into insignificance when compared with the obedient logic of the computer!

http://r3ok.myforum365.com/index.php?topic=2878.msg108047#msg108047

Baz

P.S. Unfortunately the file seems to have been deleted by Sendspace, and I shall not be uploading it again.
« Last Edit: 09:59:28, 06-05-2008 by Baz » Logged
Sydney Grew
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« Reply #102 on: 13:45:55, 06-05-2008 »

For a truly CRACKPOT performance of this piece, I should refer you back to my earlier message #37, where our Dutchman is not playing according to what he has been instructed, but according exactly to HIS OWN brief. [...] Unfortunately the file seems to have been deleted by Sendspace, and I shall not be uploading it again.

Here it is again: rapidshare or sendspace.

It is so amazingly wrong in so many ways that it should not be allowed to pass into oblivion quite so soon. The rhythms at the beginning are particularly and strikingly incontinent, as Mr. Iron has already noted.
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Baz
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« Reply #103 on: 15:28:31, 06-05-2008 »

For a truly CRACKPOT performance of this piece, I should refer you back to my earlier message #37, where our Dutchman is not playing according to what he has been instructed, but according exactly to HIS OWN brief. [...] Unfortunately the file seems to have been deleted by Sendspace, and I shall not be uploading it again.

Here it is again: rapidshare or sendspace.

It is so amazingly wrong in so many ways that it should not be allowed to pass into oblivion quite so soon. The rhythms at the beginning are particularly and strikingly incontinent, as Mr. Iron has already noted.


Thank you Mr Grew - what memories it rekindles too! I wonder how Angela plays it (no doubt very musically and sensitively)?

Baz
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #104 on: 11:50:27, 07-05-2008 »

I wonder how Angela plays it (no doubt very musically and sensitively)?

Angela is very quiet and very slow lasting altogether four minutes and two seconds. We find her unsatisfactory! although she is good in the French Suites.

Compare Svyatoslaff who takes only two minutes twenty-five seconds in a performance of exactly the same length as but much more disciplined than that of Master Berben; because of its steady beat it is the best of this bunch we feel.

But let us not omit Wanda; here she is, taking three minutes twenty-three seconds (which as it happens is the same timing as Number 2 Crackpot) and again doing some fancy business with the manuals. She does also make one or two peculiar pauses in the Berben manner, but we can almost forgive her that after her great spread chord at the climax.

What all four of these executants miss in our opinion is that the final two bars of the work sound better when played a little faster than the rest, so as to express a feeling of happy relaxation after the summit just now conquered as it were.

Well, now we move on to the B flat minor Fugue from Book I; it is composed in five parts no less, all heard here clearly separated sustained (in one case for five bars!) and marvellously flowing in a version nevertheless indubitably crackpot (rapidshare or sendspace).
« Last Edit: 14:53:11, 07-05-2008 by Sydney Grew » Logged
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