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Author Topic: At Least Ninety-Six Crackpot Interpretations  (Read 11251 times)
Sydney Grew
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« Reply #75 on: 08:46:36, 30-04-2008 »

Here (rapidshare and sendspace) is the F major Fugue from Book II. Tovey calls it "comic" "unemcumbered" "high-spirited" and "precipitous," which qualities - well he was right was he not - all stand in utter contrast to those of its tremendous Prelude presented yesterday. Cherubini was "inexpressibly horrified" by the clash between D flat and D natural in bar 84, and considered the work highly unorthodox in its lack of no fewer than five of his "eight fugal essentials."
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #76 on: 11:43:10, 01-05-2008 »

The F minor Prelude from Book 2 has already appeared (here), so to-day it is the turn of its companion F minor Fugue: rapidshare or sendspace.

Again Tovey tells us how much of a crackpot Bach himself was and that this Fugue is designed to "arouse the wrath of theorists." He goes on to say that certain aspects of it (in certain manuscripts) invoke for him "a Highlander's whoop". The performance here too is certainly misguided and crackpot. If we were doing it we would a) play it more slowly, and b) give much more emphasis and separation to the three repeated notes of the Subject at every occurrence.
« Last Edit: 13:17:38, 01-05-2008 by Sydney Grew » Logged
Turfan Fragment
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« Reply #77 on: 12:22:17, 01-05-2008 »

Hmm.. so what are Cherubini's eight fugal essentials?
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Baz
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« Reply #78 on: 13:14:19, 01-05-2008 »

Hmm.. so what are Cherubini's eight fugal essentials?

Cherubini's pronouncements can be found in his Treatise on Counterpoint and Fugue. This is available online at

http://www.scribd.com/doc/245637/Counterpoint-Fugue-Cherubini

and the substantive discussion of Fugue starts on p. 62.

Baz
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #79 on: 11:36:34, 02-05-2008 »

Having done Bach in C and Bach in F it is time before modulating on to Bach in B flat for another Chopin intermission in crackpot style, namely his grand Study opus 25 number 12. Members may hear it here: rapidshare / sendspace.

Particularly noteworthy we think are the melody notes notated on the second semi-quaver of groups of four; these must must they not be intended to confuse the auditor's sense of regular rhythm. It is one of Chopin's tricks, which he performs in many works; but why does he do it? and is there a name for the practice? Perhaps a pianist member knows.

By the way this may also be of interest. It is Bach's F minor Fugue of yesterday played by a famous Russian pianist with the initials S.R.: rapidshare / sendspace.

But even he is not nearly jolly enough we now feel.
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Turfan Fragment
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« Reply #80 on: 14:02:27, 02-05-2008 »

Hmm.. so what are Cherubini's eight fugal essentials?
Cherubini's pronouncements can be found in his Treatise on Counterpoint and Fugue. This is available online at  http://www.scribd.com/doc/245637/Counterpoint-Fugue-Cherubini
and the substantive discussion of Fugue starts on p. 62.
Baz
Thanks for that linke, though I still don't see 8 fugal 'essentials' -- perhaps Grew could clarify?
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #81 on: 16:33:05, 02-05-2008 »

. . . I still don't see 8 fugal 'essentials' -- perhaps Grew could clarify?

We are gnatlike in comparison with the learning of Mr. Baziron Mr. Fragment. All we did was quote Donald Tovey more or less verbatim from his edition of Bach's 48, and specifically from his discussion of the F major fugue of book 2 (number 11), where he writes about "a dignified and declamatory pedal on the dominant of F minor, probably the only point in this Fugue which Cherubini would have considered orthodox in a Fugue which gets along so well with only three of his 'eight essentials.'"

You are probably familiar with Tovey's reputation as a dependable sort of fellow who was likely to be right about these things.

We have just now had a quick shifty shufti at the Cambridge History of Western Music Theory but found no list of the eight essentials there. It will indeed be interesting to hear more if and when some one finds them.
« Last Edit: 15:26:19, 03-05-2008 by Sydney Grew » Logged
Turfan Fragment
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« Reply #82 on: 17:14:58, 02-05-2008 »

Is this what we mean?

Quote from: Cherubini Treatise
All the devices that can be introduced into a fugue depend upon the knowledge, the skill, and the judgment of the composer, and, at the same time, upon the nature of the SUBJECT and of the COUNTER-SUBJECT which may offer more of less scope for these devices. These said devices consist, firstly, in the employment of imitations formed by detaching portions either of the SUBJECT or of the COUNTER-SUBJECT; secondly, in the transposition of the subject into different keys, and in the advantage which may be derived with respect to this from double counterpoints; thirdly, in the inversion of the SUBJECT by contrary movement; fourthly, in a new SUBJECT that may be introduced for combination with the first SUBJECT and the first COUNTER-SUBJECT; fifthly in the manner of combining the STRETTO in several ways, each time more and more closely approaching the RESPONSE to the SUBJECT; sixthly, in the means that may be employed to let the SUBJECT be heard simultaneously with its inversion by contrary movement; seventhly and lastly, in the method of combining the SUBJECT, the COUNTER-SUBJECT, and the STRETTO upon the pedal, and in the skill and taste with which these devices are brought in and worked throughout the extent of a fugue.

That's seven things, and not really essential, just possible, devices -- perhaps the eighth thing is the 'skill and taste'? Don't you just love old counterpoint treatises? Here's how to write a fugue: "Exhibit skill and taste".

There's also this:
Quote from: Happy Cherub
The indispensable conditions of a fugue are the subject, the response, the counter-subject; and the stretto. There may be added to these the pedal, which is almost always employed in a fugue of any extent.
Stretto is indispensable? What would Bach say? Certainly Cherubini was talking about the older fugues eg Battiferri, Frescobaldi, ... Huh
Will have to dig further.

The treatise itself is quite amusing, so strange how terminology has changed since Cherubini, and how far his own terminology is from that of yet older theorists. But he also seems to contradict himself on more than one occasion.
« Last Edit: 17:29:12, 02-05-2008 by Turfan Fragment » Logged

Baz
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« Reply #83 on: 10:45:10, 03-05-2008 »

I here make another contribution to the ever-expanding cracpotorium. This time it is Bach's Prelude in D Minor (WTC Book1), played again by our wayward Dutchman.

Those familiar with the piece will know that it presents a string of ever-changing arpeggiated RH triplets in semiquavers above a constant throbbing bass line in quavers. The changing RH patterns are quite challenging, and usually a novice has to practise them very slowly, with frequent pauses.

But who would have thought it conceivable that such a performance could be shamelessly passed off as a 'genuine' one. I am undecided in this instance whether what is played is an example of simple incompetence (especially since at least one glaring uncorrected error is allowed to stand in the RH), or whether it is an example of a new kind of sauce hollandaise. See what you think...

CLICK HERE

Baz
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #84 on: 13:38:44, 03-05-2008 »

To-day it is the turn of Bach's B flat major Prelude from Book 1 (Rapidshare or Sendspace) in a convincingly crackpot performance which includes a contribution by brass band.

Of it Tovey remarks that "the old reading that adds a low B flat octave in an additional bar is perhaps the most Philistine single printed chord in the whole history of music." That is certainly saying something is it not - and perhaps he might have substituted "crackpot" for "Philistine."

In regard to the previous post we wonder whether there are to be found on the Internet any favourable reviews of Mr. Iron's indeed wayward man. It would be interesting to find out what if anything could be said in his favour.
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #85 on: 15:04:43, 03-05-2008 »

To-day it is the turn of Bach's B flat major Prelude from Book 1 (Rapidshare or Sendspace) in a convincingly crackpot performance which includes a contribution by brass band.


Whilst I agree that anyone who downloads files from a thread marked "crackpot" deserves all they get, this one marked a new low in the genre, and I feel it ought to come with some kind of Health Warning that you should agree to before playing it Sad
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
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thompson1780
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« Reply #86 on: 18:24:12, 03-05-2008 »

Reiner, you rotter!

Of course with a last post of yours like that I had to listen to Syd's latest crack-pottery.

Tomm-Oh woe is me.
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Made by Thompson & son, at the Violin & c. the West end of St. Paul's Churchyard, LONDON
Turfan Fragment
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« Reply #87 on: 21:02:41, 03-05-2008 »

To-day it is the turn of Bach's B flat major Prelude from Book 1 (Rapidshare or Sendspace) in a convincingly crackpot performance which includes a contribution by brass band.
I thought it was breathtakingly beautiful. The arpeggiations come through extremely well, and certainly the first trumpet player is to be commended for his or her command of the leaping sixths.
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Baz
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« Reply #88 on: 21:54:01, 03-05-2008 »


In regard to the previous post we wonder whether there are to be found on the Internet any favourable reviews of Mr. Iron's indeed wayward man. It would be interesting to find out what if anything could be said in his favour.


Well - here is one that popped up from Google (though it is not very favourable):

Quote
Anybody happen to know what bizarre edition Leon Berben was playing from, for the Well-Tempered Clavier? Or is it just handfuls of questionable notes (sounding like a misreading of scores, especially in the area of accidentals missing) that the producer didn't catch for a retake? His performances here sound confident and fluent, and not like ornamentation or improvised details either, or like mere finger slips; but just like a case of learning the music too quickly and incompletely, sight-reading errors or producer's inattention.... Many of them are interesting interpretations, but I find myself on edge waiting for the next wrong notes to come up, in so many of them.

He sounds like a player I'd enjoy meeting, and hearing in concert...but I'd hope that the music is thoroughly learned before committing it to recording or concert. Smiley The beginning of the F# minor fugue, book 1, is one obvious place where it wasn't: there's are two or three extra beats inserted into the first appearance of the subject, during its final trill, with a huge rubato that doesn't sound deliberately planned. Then despite that slow and odd start, he burns through that whole fugue in 1'54", while my rendition takes 3'34" and Watchorn's is even more ruminative at 4'14". 3'49" for Glenn Gould.... At the least, Berben's rendition of this fugue is a shock to my neural system.

I'm no stranger to playing or enjoying alternate readings of the music; my own disc of WTC excerpts has one in the B major, and I documented in the booklet that I was using the alternate "alpha" reading that the NBA printed separately.... It just seems to me that the Brilliant set should tell us somewhere if the musicians are using an especially off-the-beaten-path version of the score.


http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Vocal/BWV250-438-Matt.htm
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #89 on: 10:35:00, 04-05-2008 »

Here - rapidshare or sendspace - is Bach's B flat major Fugue from Book 1, a merry little piece in three parts. The tempo here chosen is no doubt slower and tends more towards the crackpot than that adopted by most of the flightier executants. "Watch out for Bach-grinders!" cautions Tovey here, "for they obscure the harmony." He goes on to describe parts of this fugue as "absurdly light" - perhaps so - and "fluttering" even - well that we do not think.
« Last Edit: 11:41:28, 04-05-2008 by Sydney Grew » Logged
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