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Author Topic: At Least Ninety-Six Crackpot Interpretations  (Read 11251 times)
pianola
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Posts: 38



« Reply #420 on: 23:58:40, 05-07-2008 »

Les cabines téléphoniques de Saint-Saëns

Old pianists are rather like classic wines.

Did I pour out a glass of Camille, perhaps? Alas, no, not on this occasion.

But the vintage is right, and the vineyard too.

If you pour Gaul on the pianist's identity, you will have the right tipple.

Pianola
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #421 on: 09:04:31, 06-07-2008 »

This A minor Prelude from Bach's first Book ladies and gentlemen - here (rapid-share or send-space) given in a classically crazed interpretation - sounds like just a wild little improvisatory thing he dashed off betweenwhiles.

"The occasional homo-phonic chords may be slightly broken" writes Tovey; well Glen with one "n" does that all the time so let us hear what he too makes of this piece.


In the first three bars it sounds as though he holds down the A in the bass for longer than Bach suggested he should; but there is no great harm in that. Far worse is the way he plays bars seventeen and nineteen - the bass should be marked and emphatic, "drummed" even, despite Tovey's timid warning, and certainly not rushed over as in Glen's performance. Even so it is as a whole not unpleasant, although as it turns out the only broken chord we hear comes at the very end.
« Last Edit: 09:06:56, 06-07-2008 by Sydney Grew » Logged
Baz
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« Reply #422 on: 10:07:26, 06-07-2008 »

The tempo adopted in both versions seems entirely correct - and this is also the speed used by Gustav.

But the strange thing is that the preceding Fugue (A major) that was presented yesterday adopts also the same relatively uncommon 9/8 signature. But when Gustav used (again) precisely the same speed there Mr Grew thought it too fast! I beg to differ, and his own rendition of the current A Minor Prelude surely proves that it is possible "to savour every quaver" without needing to feel that we are somehow part of a cortège. It is difficult (if not impossible) for me to understand why a signature of 9/8 for this Prelude, as well as (say) for the organ Prelude in C (the so-called "9/8") is suitably rendered at this pace, but not apparently in the case of yesterday's A Major Fugue. (9/8 means - as I pleaded yesterday - 3 beats to the bar, each subdivided into 3 faster-moving units).

I think that most - if not all - of Tovey's slithy pronouncements can safely be ignored (especially since he appears to be instructing pianists in the ways they must play their instruments as if they were clavichords).

Baz
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #423 on: 11:17:40, 06-07-2008 »

It is difficult (if not impossible) for me to understand why a signature of 9/8 for this Prelude, as well as (say) for the organ Prelude in C (the so-called "9/8") is suitably rendered at this pace, but not apparently in the case of yesterday's A Major Fugue. (9/8 means - as I pleaded yesterday - 3 beats to the bar, each subdivided into 3 faster-moving units).

The difference is in the style and content of the music is not it? In the case of yesterday's Fugue Bach wrote the subject in such a way that its curious intervals would when in combination with itself and/or other elements generate with every new quaver a new and astonishing verticality. It must go at a tempo that enables the auditor to relish at leisure every quaver. Whereas to-day's Prelude has as we stated an improvisatory quality that is quite different; in the first three and a half bars we hear (as we might in some popular song) only three harmonies and they are very common ones. The interest of the work lies more in the if we may say so slightly sinister melodic gestures . . . Candle-lit Bach was not exactly living in our present civilized age was he?
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Baz
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« Reply #424 on: 11:52:24, 06-07-2008 »

It is difficult (if not impossible) for me to understand why a signature of 9/8 for this Prelude, as well as (say) for the organ Prelude in C (the so-called "9/8") is suitably rendered at this pace, but not apparently in the case of yesterday's A Major Fugue. (9/8 means - as I pleaded yesterday - 3 beats to the bar, each subdivided into 3 faster-moving units).

The difference is in the style and content of the music is not it? In the case of yesterday's Fugue Bach wrote the subject in such a way that its curious intervals would when in combination with itself and/or other elements generate with every new quaver a new and astonishing verticality. It must go at a tempo that enables the auditor to relish at leisure every quaver. Whereas to-day's Prelude has as we stated an improvisatory quality that is quite different; in the first three and a half bars we hear (as we might in some popular song) only three harmonies and they are very common ones. The interest of the work lies more in the if we may say so slightly sinister melodic gestures . . . Candle-lit Bach was not exactly living in our present civilized age was he?


Then Cecil Gray was undoubtedly correct in his view of this Prelude when he wrote the following:

Quote
The general level of the preludes hereabouts, it will have been remarked, is consistently high, whether from the point of view of technical interest or that of expressive beauty, and generally from both points of view. In this sequence the Prelude in A minor is something of an exception. It is, in truth, somewhat mechanical in construction and colourless in mood, apart from the arresting melodic phrase which occurs rather more than half-way through.

Here he quotes from the top voice that accompanies the "drumming" referred to by Mr Grew in the bass. I think we have to assume, then, that what might be called "interesting Bach" needs to be played slowly in order for us to savour every sonic event presented, while the more "humdrum" or "boring" Bach will need to be played at a quick speed in order a) to get it over and done with as soon as possible, and b) to make it at least sound as though it has some interest and excitement.

Is this Mr Grew's take also?

Baz
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #425 on: 12:26:11, 06-07-2008 »

I think we have to assume, then, that what might be called "interesting Bach" needs to be played slowly in order for us to savour every sonic event presented, while the more "humdrum" or "boring" Bach will need to be played at a quick speed in order a) to get it over and done with as soon as possible, and b) to make it at least sound as though it has some interest and excitement.

Is this Mr Grew's take also?

No not at all not that either. To-day's Prelude is a fine work, but simply of a style and character different from that of yesterday's fugue. We do not see the necessity of playing at the same tempo two works with the time signature 9/8, any more than of playing at the same tempo two works with the time signature C.

The only Preludes we find a little weak are those in which the composer changes tack half-way through, as in the case of the Presto section of number ten (in Book I), or the Allegro of number three in Book II. Possibly Bach gave them to one of his sons or pupils to "finish off" because he had something rather important to do elsewhere . . .
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Baz
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« Reply #426 on: 00:11:25, 07-07-2008 »


The only Preludes we find a little weak are those in which the composer changes tack half-way through, as in the case of the Presto section of number ten (in Book I), or the Allegro of number three in Book II. Possibly Bach gave them to one of his sons or pupils to "finish off" because he had something rather important to do elsewhere . . .


I don't feel Bach behaved like (e.g.) Lully providing sketches for his pupils to complete for him. I believe what is in the sources is essentially what he left himself. The Preludes cover so many diverse styles and forms of the day - Inventions, Fantasias, Fugues, Toccatas and Arias (among others), and some of these (especially the Toccatas and Fantasias) naturally fall into contrasting sections. Sometimes, however, they are only just (if at all) long enough to give the 'flavour' of the model, while remaining modestly 'undeveloped' as viewed alongside examples of the real thing.

But this is where performers fail - they try to make too much out of these (mostly but not all) small-scale pieces. I am so irritated  when I hear them being 'mucked about with' in the ways some of the crackpot versions manage (though Mr Grew's own seldom have this effect because - as I have previously said - they only attempt to give a straight view of each piece). I have therefore reached the point of preferring performances that sound completely clean, natural, unfussy and textually authentic.

As an example, here is what I think is a really beautiful version of Fugue 1 from The Art of Fugue, played here by four solo Viol players...

CLICK

Baz
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #427 on: 09:09:11, 07-07-2008 »

The sound of those viols is indeed very pleasant, especially in that it is leisurely - they take some time to ease into each note and do not have the sudden attack of almost all modern instruments.

Players of all kinds of instruments have attempted the Art of Fugue - probably this is simply because no particular ensemble was specified by the composer - whereas this has not nearly so often been the case in the case of the Well-Tempered Clavier.

To-day's A minor Fugue from Book I is we think quite early Bach; nevertheless it is one of the most enjoyable works in the entire collection. Here it is in another eminently eccentric rendition (rapid-share / send-space).

We rejoice in the thick harmonies of bars twenty-four to twenty-seven, and we love the way the work is driven by its rhythm; that driving rhythm and the diatonic framework both so predictable permit the most outlandish and unpredictable combinations to shew forth as inevitable, that was Bach's secret! And we especially adore the flying escape from cadence at bar sixty-two!

All these elaborate combinations are possible because in the first bar and a half every degree of the minor scale is already sounded; all Bach really has to do thereafter is to combine them in a myriad of ways.

Another point which may be mentioned is that the whole work is of a character such as instantly to appeal to common people of all races untutored in "classical music" as a genre. After a single audition of this Fugue any moderately musical youth as we know for a fact will at once drop his "pops" "film music" or "jazz" and henceforth return always and ever to Bach for his pleasure. Music of this kind - music of the "fast Bach" - the keyboard and violin concerti, the Brandenburgs - is enjoyed by every one without exception!

To whom shall we listen as comparison? Perhaps we should give Friedrich another chance.


As well as promoting "anti-bourgeois music" whatever that may mean he was of course also a "jazz" addict and normally that is a very bad sign indeed yet it may mean that he could handle rapidly interweaving contrapuntal lines. After all if he fails we can always laugh at his mistakes: Friedrich's attempt.

Well! what we can say is that his playing is unnecessarily staccato (quite contrary to Tovey's recommendation of a "general legato") his expression excessively jaunty and the pianoforte tone most peculiar - it puts us in mind of Mr. Baziron's spoons does not it! His tempo is not too bad but the whole does not approach that for which we might have been justified in hoping. Can any Members recommend a more exciting interpretation?


The sixteen-year-old Friedrich looking very bourgeois indeed.
« Last Edit: 09:57:53, 07-07-2008 by Sydney Grew » Logged
Baz
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« Reply #428 on: 09:44:47, 07-07-2008 »

...the whole work is of a character such as instantly to appeal to common people of all races untutored in "classical music" as a genre. After a single audition of this Fugue any moderately musical youth as we know for a fact will at once drop his "pops" "film music" or "jazz" and henceforth return always and ever to Bach for his pleasure. Music of this kind - music of the "fast Bach" - the keyboard and violin concerti, the Brandenburgs - is enjoyed by every one without exception!

Bach had many crosses to bear: he fathered 20 children, worked for a series of recalcitrant employers, spent a short spell in prison, brought together the Italian, French and German styles into one, and ultimately went blind.

I cannot help wondering Mr Grew whether - 258 years after he should have begun to rest in peace - inflicting upon him the new burden of re-educating and realigning the tastes of today's Youth is perhaps one burden too many for the poor old chap?

Baz
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #429 on: 09:58:33, 07-07-2008 »

Bach had many crosses to bear: he fathered 20 children

As they say just a little to the East from here: Vater werden ist nicht schwer, Vater sein dagegen sehr. I don't know if just the fathering should be counted as a cross in itself... Wink
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Baz
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« Reply #430 on: 10:44:32, 07-07-2008 »


...Well! what we can say is that his playing is unnecessarily staccato (quite contrary to Tovey's recommendation of a "general legato") his expression excessively jaunty and the pianoforte tone most peculiar - it puts us in mind of Mr. Baziron's spoons does not it! His tempo is not too bad but the whole does not approach that for which we might have been justified in hoping.


I only ever mentioned teaspoons - never serving spoons Mr Grew! That said, what he does convey is a remarkable understanding of every detail of the piece's construction and architecture. Now that is a good deal more than can be said for many other performers, and you are probably correct in observing that his Jazz skills have enabled him to achieve contrapuntal clarity and flair. I hesitated when he provided his cadenza at bar 80 (following the pause), but then remembered that I once did exactly the same myself in a public performance of the Passacaglia and Fugue in C Minor so listened again. It didn't sound so bad on second hearing and, I must admit, brought something new to the dynamism and structure of the piece that seemed (in the end) quite appropriate.

Baz
« Last Edit: 10:50:43, 07-07-2008 by Baz » Logged
Sydney Grew
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« Reply #431 on: 09:06:31, 08-07-2008 »

To-day we turn to Book II and an idiot interpretation of its pleasantly pastoral A major Prelude (rapid-share and send-space).

Tovey was tremendously struck by the bass in bar twenty, which consists simply of two As in succession. "Perhaps no single note has ever combined more threads of the musical history of three centuries than the second bass-note of bar 20 with its gesture of behaving like a merely homo-phonic bass contented to devote itself to marking key-notes," he writes. It is with evident relief that he continues, "With bar 21, however, the bass revives and again leads to the sub-dominant."

Here as comparison is how András - another quiet one - does it.
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Baz
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« Reply #432 on: 10:27:22, 08-07-2008 »

To-day we turn to Book II and an idiot interpretation of its pleasantly pastoral A major Prelude (rapid-share and send-space).

Tovey was tremendously struck by the bass in bar twenty, which consists simply of two As in succession. "Perhaps no single note has ever combined more threads of the musical history of three centuries than the second bass-note of bar 20 with its gesture of behaving like a merely homo-phonic bass contented to devote itself to marking key-notes," he writes. It is with evident relief that he continues, "With bar 21, however, the bass revives and again leads to the sub-dominant."

Here as comparison is how András - another quiet one - does it.


I don't think that was such an "idiot interpretation" Mr Grew - and I am getting quite used to the way you sometimes (though not always) end these pieces as though (like installing another run of wallpaper) the final cadence marks the skirting board at which point the piece is gracefully clipped off with the scissors.

But Andras is quite another matter! Listen again to him, and please note exactly what he does at bar 10! In case you did not believe it, just listen again.

Now few could help noticing that in having completely fouled up the inner voice on beat 2 by having played the C# on the first quaver instead of the second, he hesitates for a millisecond before just continuing without the first quaver of the beat, as if nothing had happened. Well it did, didn't it!? The bar was incomplete by a whole quaver, and this upset the symmetry of the whole phrase.

But the question is this: what kind of condescension causes somebody to provide really quite expensive recordings of this music while, at the same time, allowing basic errors of this kind to remain in situ? This is what I call genuine Crackpottery, and it just makes one, from that point onwards, feel unconvinced by the playing, and apprehensive that other uncorrected shocks will happen at any time unexpectedly (and be left for the listener as though they did not matter).

It is a well-known fact that organists - apparently unique in this respect among instrumentalists - tend to hear what they see written on the page rather than their performance of it. Perhaps this sometimes happens with pianists as well!

Baz
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thompson1780
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« Reply #433 on: 23:36:22, 08-07-2008 »

Perhaps we should give Friedrich another chance.



Not with those trousers you shouldn't, Syd.  Honestly, I thought you would have learned from your Shostakovich experience.  Wink

Tommo
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Made by Thompson & son, at the Violin & c. the West end of St. Paul's Churchyard, LONDON
Sydney Grew
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« Reply #434 on: 10:21:54, 09-07-2008 »

Yes you are right of course Mr. T. Indeed we have always found the analysis of apparel a necessary first indicator towards an understanding of the character of its wearers.

Now few could help noticing that in having completely fouled up the inner voice on beat 2 by having played the C# on the first quaver instead of the second, he hesitates for a millisecond before just continuing without the first quaver of the beat, as if nothing had happened. Well it did, didn't it!? The bar was incomplete by a whole quaver, and this upset the symmetry of the whole phrase.

It is just possible that we have a defective recording, but otherwise we agree there can be no excuse. One must always strive for perfection and when as must inevitably from time to time happen one falls short begin again at the beginning. Still we remember those examples from Léon with which this thread began and they were even worse were not they.

To-day we hear in an interpretation of scarcely tolerable absurdity the A major Fugue from Bach's second Book (rapid-share / send-space). Tovey draws our attention to the "delightful bottom notes in bar sixteen," and reminds us that "throughout Book II Bach wrote for larger instruments than were available to him for Book I."

Apart from that we may content ourselves with Ebenezer Prout who calls this one "a melodious little fugue, of such simple construction as to call for hardly any special remarks."

Riemann too writes that "the fugue (à 3) belongs to the smaller, more delicate, more simply planned ones" - but then proceeds to devote to it six pages of detailed description.

Let us in contrast turn to a organist and harpsichordist, and give Helmut a second chance.
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