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Author Topic: At Least Ninety-Six Crackpot Interpretations  (Read 11251 times)
martle
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« Reply #540 on: 09:04:29, 29-07-2008 »

Bravo, Baz Dude! That's pretty cool, indeed. All you need to do now is ween your drummer off those puny woodblocks.  Cheesy

 Cool
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Green. Always green.
Sydney Grew
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« Reply #541 on: 10:59:13, 29-07-2008 »

(I don't have that LB Enigma either, but that severely extended, perhaps even etiolated, reading of its emotional core should surely count amongst the more eccentric of interpretations: anyone willing to admit to possessing it?)

I have it, Mr Dough, and may well post it here soon!!

Aha...here it is: RapidShare

In his recent book, which happened to arrive here only this morning, the admirable Mr. Lebrecht includes that recording among the "twenty worst recordings ever made." He says "The musicians were incensed. Bernstein had made porridge out of a piece of national heritage for no apparent reason except perversity. He told the orchestra he would never work with them again. Several players broke into applause."

But we actually rather enjoyed that little excerpt. One of the few problems with Elgar's music is his short wind. We do not thereby mean that his symphonies are short of course, just that his greatest moments do not last long enough.
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #542 on: 11:09:55, 29-07-2008 »

Perhaps the ultimate in crackpottery is this G minor Fugue from Bach's second didactic book (rapid-share / send-space). Members will already know that the number seven has a special significance in music theory, because we established some time ago that it was possible to categorise composers into seven grades or ratings. And in the initial unaccompanied statement of the subject of this Fugue Bach repeats middle C exactly seven times in a row. Schoenberg's rows consisted of a set of precisely twelve notes - not eleven, not thirteen, it had to be twelve exactly, and repetition was not allowed; they all had to have different names, even. Bach's rows are quite different: his seven notes are all exactly the same.

Yet as Tovey tells us "this Subject and its Countersubject are in an all-comprehending Double Counterpoint in the octave, tenth and twelfth." We hope Members will ponder for a moment that expression "all-comprehending."

A little later in his commentary Tovey suggests we should consult Weingartner's book "How to Conduct Beethoven's Symphonies" if we wish to find a good hint about phrasing. But regrettably this particular book does not appear to be available on the Inter-Net, although two others are ("On Conducting" and The Symphony since Beethoven). Weingartner wrote seven symphonies himself, yet the admirable Mr. Lebrecht refers to him as one of the "scribbling conductors," like Klemperer, Furtwängler, de Sabata, Walter, Mahler, and Strauss.

Ebenezer Prout calls this Fugue "one of the finest in the whole collection."

Riemann describes those seven repeated notes as having "a tense, an indeed somewhat stubborn nature."

Actually it is the harmonies foreshadowing Wagner at the end of bar forty-eight and the beginning of bar forty-nine which for us constitute the most striking feature of the work. And we certainly do not recommend there the Czerny edition which removes all the dots from the upper line of bar forty-eight and turns it into six simple quavers!

Curious Members may welcome these two points of comparison: here Svyatozluff gives what we find quite a satisfactory rendition; while Wanda makes an excellent start but becomes increasingly erratic, and well before the end suffers not one but two complete nervous breaks-down. There is an odd phrase in her commentary: "When Bach takes possession of a certain rhythm, he does not let go," she writes. So why is it that she herself does, and so strikingly?
« Last Edit: 01:45:30, 31-07-2008 by Sydney Grew » Logged
Baz
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« Reply #543 on: 11:57:41, 29-07-2008 »

...One of the few problems with Elgar's music is his short wind.

We quite agree! For those of us who are "cosmopolitan" we often feel that we "English" are too reticent and tend to be disposed to "hold on" instead of letting it break.

Baz
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Baz
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« Reply #544 on: 12:50:16, 29-07-2008 »


...Curious Members may welcome these two points of comparison: here Svyatozluff gives what we find quite a satisfactory rendition; while Wanda makes an excellent start but becomes increasingly erratic, and well before the end suffers not one but two complete nervous breaks-down. There is an odd phrase in her commentary: "When Bach takes possession of a certain rhythm, he does not let go," she writes. So why is it that she herself does, and so strikingly?


With regard to Wanda, we sometimes sense our continuing inability in what we write to "get through"!

When John Harrison - the famous English clock maker - built his time-pieces completely from wood, admirers marvelled at one obvious fact: they never had any need whatsoever to be lubricated (the natural oils in the wood being quite able - as the old codger obviously knew all along - to self-lubricate the mechanism for ever!). To a great extent it was the same with harpsichords and spinets (built around the same time). They were reliable, kept themselves in good tune, and needed minimal maintenance. BUT...

...up pops Pleyel! Having decided that it is possible to "improve" matters by building metal frames, metal jacks, heavier metal strings (more resembling railway lines than musical strings), he produced extremely RIGID instruments with little resonance wherein the owner/player must spend approximately 75% of the time maintaining the bastard (!) and only 25% of the remaining time actually playing it!

Wanda, in her quest for ultimate authenticity, inherited one of these monsters (and we shall continue to regard it merely as a cumbersome knitting machine). It must therefore stand to reason we think that after playing only a short section of a piece such as the current G Minor fugue, Wanda needs to apply some "maintenance" to her machine (she probably has liberal supplies of machine oil at the ready).

In this performance she seems we think to have "cheated" a little: it is clear to us that those moments when she appears to be (as Mr Grew observes) "having a nervous breakdown", she has already enlisted the services of an assistant who - oil-can at the ready - pours into the monster the required lubrication (at Wanda's command) in order for her to be able (in at least a fashion) to complete the movement. The signal she gives - it seems - is to grind almost to a standstill (and we can imagine her visual gestures to the "fall guy" when she indicates the specific piece of the machine that needs "freeing up" so as to allow her to proceed).

Under these extreme conditions we feel she manages very well - though we feel if only (like Gustav) she could resist the temptation of actually needing to use both manuals in every piece she plays she might well have saved quite a lot of wear and tear, and also needed far less lubrication in each piece.

Baz
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Baz
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« Reply #545 on: 12:59:48, 30-07-2008 »

Perhaps the ultimate in crackpottery is this G minor Fugue from Bach's second didactic book (rapid-share / send-space)

The Member was it seems being entirely serious in his ultimatum (it now being already lunchtime!).



Baz
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A
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« Reply #546 on: 21:23:54, 30-07-2008 »



Don't cry Baz, he'll be back  Undecided
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Well, there you are.
Sydney Grew
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« Reply #547 on: 09:28:02, 31-07-2008 »

Well! No Members have jumped in with further crackpot contributions, so let us to-day turn to the third of Bach's sets of Keyboard Exercises and in particular to his First Duet! The prospect of writing for just two parts always set off the strangest creative instincts in Bach, and this crackpot work is a good example.

Let us listen to it performed here (rapid-share / send-space) by an anonymous crackpot, and here by way of comparison by Matteo, a gentleman presumably from Italy. His organ is in Grauhof though and was put together by Herr Treutmann in 1737. It is terribly muffled is not it? The crackpot interpretation is ten times more purposeful.

As Members will be aware the third collection of Keyboard Exercises includes at the beginning a Prelude in E flat, and at the end a long Fugue in the same key; sometimes they are performed together and given the nick-name "Saint Anne."

What Members may not know however is that both these pieces are spurious. Furthermore Schönberg - something of a crackpot himself of course - made a dreadful mistake when in 1928 for reasons best known to himself he arranged them for large symphony orchestra and assigned Bach's name to the result. It is at once clear to a person of taste and discrimination that the "Saint Anne" Prelude and Fugue are not in the form we have them the work of Bach.
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #548 on: 10:15:22, 31-07-2008 »


Although we cannot for the moment find Felix's book "How to Conduct Beethoven's Symphonies" (to which reference is made in reply 542) Members may at least wish to see what is probably the next best thing his face at the time he wrote it.
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Baz
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« Reply #549 on: 10:19:07, 31-07-2008 »

Well! No Members have jumped in with further crackpot contributions, so let us to-day turn to the third of Bach's sets of Keyboard Exercises and in particular to his First Duet! The prospect of writing for just two parts always set off the strangest creative instincts in Bach, and this crackpot work is a good example.

Let us listen to it performed here (rapid-share / send-space) by an anonymous crackpot, and here by way of comparison by Matteo, a gentleman presumably from Italy. His organ is in Grauhof though and was put together by Herr Treutmann in 1737. It is terribly muffled is not it? The crackpot interpretation is ten times more purposeful.

As Members will be aware the third collection of Keyboard Exercises includes at the beginning a Prelude in E flat, and at the end a long Fugue in the same key; sometimes they are performed together and given the nick-name "Saint Anne."

What Members may not know however is that both these pieces are spurious. Furthermore Schönberg - something of a crackpot himself of course - made a dreadful mistake when in 1928 for reasons best known to himself he arranged them for large symphony orchestra and assigned Bach's name to the result. It is at once clear to a person of taste and discrimination that the "Saint Anne" Prelude and Fugue are not in the form we have them the work of Bach.


We agree with the Member that - although we prefer the sound of that organ - Matteo's playing is too lacking in rhythm for this piece. The crackpot performance is in that respect better.

But we must take issue with the Member's pronouncements concerning the opening Prelude and concluding Fugue! There has to come a point where taste alone must give way to facts. Those who could ever have doubted the authenticity of these two movements must have done so by ignoring the self-evident facts that arise from the publication of Clavier-Übung III. In that publication - which was overseen and proof-read by Bach himself - the opening Prelude and closing Fugue are clearly notated in the composer's own handwriting just as are all the remaining contents of the collection! We can, should the member doubt this, post a scan of each to show this fact. It is clear therefore that our conviction of their complete and absolute authenticity (adjudged both by our experience and our taste) is completely corroborated by the known facts.

With regard to the "Saint Anne" nonsense (which the Member is merely reporting after decades of general misconception), the puzzle was we think solved by an article that appeared in 1998...

CLICK

...that showed a) that both movements were elaborations of the Lutheran chorale melody O Herzensangst, o Bangigkeit, and b) as an expression of this fundamental aspect of Lutheran doctrine both movements had a perfectly logical place within this collection which - as we know - is a musical setting of the Longer and Shorter Lutheran Catechism.

It is our view, indeed, that there was no other composer living at the time who was capable of producing such closely-structured and mature compositions as is demonstrated in both the opening Prelude and concluding Fugue!

Baz
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #550 on: 11:45:19, 31-07-2008 »

[...] It is our view, indeed, that there was no other composer living at the time who was capable of producing such closely-structured and mature compositions as is demonstrated in both the opening Prelude and concluding Fugue!

Ha! We had until now been entirely unaware of that article, but it is indeed curiously pertinent is not it!

In our remarks about authenticity we relied purely upon our cultivated æsthetic sense - we unlike the Member have found both the Prelude and the Fugue quite uncharacteristically tiresome after several repetitions - and it is interesting to learn that Bach was hesitant about their incorporation into the collection.

Is it possible we wonder that there were a primitive Prelude and a Fugue, originally by this Hurlebusch, which Bach was for some reason ordered by his superiors to use in the collection, but which like Beethoven he first altered beyond recognition, doing a Diabelli upon them as it were. (We know he often arranged the work of other composers on his off days.) Perhaps one of those German lords had a son or favourite for whose use the collection was in part put together, and this lord happened to be a Hurlebusch enthusiast . . . That would explain a) the Member's remark quoted above, b) the Hurdlebusch connection, and c) the fact that they appear in Bach's hand-writing.

As for the Lutheran aspect it is bound to come up again and again as we go through the set. But the question which will concern the Members more urgently now is, How do the four Duets fit in? What is their logical place within the collection? Indeed some editions leave them out do not they but with what justification?
« Last Edit: 12:01:07, 31-07-2008 by Sydney Grew » Logged
Baz
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« Reply #551 on: 12:23:20, 31-07-2008 »


...Is it possible we wonder that there were a primitive Prelude and a Fugue, originally by this Hurlebusch, which Bach was for some reason ordered by his superiors to use in the collection, but which like Beethoven he first altered beyond recognition, doing a Diabelli upon them as it were. (We know he often arranged the work of other composers on his off days.) Perhaps one of those German lords had a son or favourite for whose use the collection was in part put together, and this lord happened to be a Hurlebusch enthusiast . . . That would explain a) the Member's remark quoted above, b) the Hurdlebusch connection, and c) the fact that they appear in Bach's hand-writing.


We can of course simply go on writing novels and "who-dun-it"s and believe them to be true. Alternatively we can take the documented evidence and try to learn from it. That way we might respectfully see the composer as he should have wished us to.

As for Hurlebusch, his puny compositions paled into insignificance alongside those of JSB (as did Salieri's alongside those of Mozart). How many Members we must ask have even ever heard of him?!

Baz
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Baz
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« Reply #552 on: 13:32:34, 31-07-2008 »


...As for the Lutheran aspect it is bound to come up again and again as we go through the set. But the question which will concern the Members more urgently now is, How do the four Duets fit in? What is their logical place within the collection? Indeed some editions leave them out do not they but with what justification?


Well that is indeed a big question we feel! There is no reason to leave them out (since Bach definitely put them in!). But their purpose (id est within the scheme of the collection) seems both clear yet elusive.

If we look at the title page, Bach specifies that "other chorales" are included. Since the only items that do not bear a chorale (or other melodic) title are the opening Prelude and closing Fugue, together with the 4 duetti, we should perhaps look to these.

Since we now know that the Prelude and Fugue indeed are based upon a chorale melody (as indicated in my earlier posting), we should not be surprised to find that these duetti are also. But identifying them is quite another matter (and the exercise has some long way to go).

HOWEVER let us cheekily make a suggestion for one of them! Perhaps the Member might care to examine Duetto number 2 (i.e. the one in F major), and then compare it with the chorale melody Wachet auf (noticing in particular the way the two ideas in the "subject" present a concatenated statement of phrases 1 and 2 of the chorale melody). We do not ever bet (on the horses, the wretched football, or even the rip-off Lottery), but if we did we think our money would be very safely invested in a musical connection between this piece and its supposed chorale derivative!

"Give it a try!" we urge. Who knows - before this thread runs out we may have solved the problem of these 4 duetti and their chorale derivations!

Baz
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #553 on: 10:17:37, 01-08-2008 »

[...] Perhaps the Member might care to examine Duetto number 2 (i.e. the one in F major), and then compare it with the chorale melody Wachet auf (noticing in particular the way the two ideas in the "subject" present a concatenated statement of phrases 1 and 2 of the chorale melody). We do not ever bet (on the horses, the wretched football, or even the rip-off Lottery), but if we did we think our money would be very safely invested in a musical connection between this piece and its supposed chorale derivative!

"Give it a try!" we urge. Who knows - before this thread runs out we may have solved the problem of these 4 duetti and their chorale derivations!

Well! We have had a quick look but not managed to catch sight of any grazing sheep at all. If which we are by no means saying he is not the Member is correct in his presumption the correspondence must then be a recondite one and we hope he himself will expound it for the edification of the Group. But in doing so it is advisable we think to heed the recent words of one of Britain's most respected authorities: "We can of course simply go on writing novels and 'who-dun-its' and believe them to be true. Alternatively we can take the documented evidence and try to learn from it."

It is true that Ernest Newman tells us that "Bach's arabesque is often so luxuriant that without a previous knowledge of the chorale the player would hardly suspect the latent existence of the simple theme in the figuration," and that may well apply in this case too. Ernest Newman is of course not to be confused with Newman Flower - yet another authority in the field.

What we can do to-day is provide a translation of Bach's title page: "Third Part of the Clavier Exercises, containing various preludes upon the catechism hymns and others, for the organ: composed for the soul's delectation of amateurs, and more especially of connoisseurs of this style, by Johann Sebastian Bach, Court Composer, &c." The collection was published in 1739, and the first and second parts are not as one might suppose Books I and II of the Well-Tempered Clavier, but the six wonderful keyboard Partitas of 1731, and a volume containing the Italian Concerto and the French Overture in 1735. The fourth part of the Clavier Exercises contains the "Goldberg" Variations, and came out in 1742.

Here is the second Duet, still very idiosyncratic, in a lively rendition from the lunatic fringe (rapid-share / send-space). The work contains much close counterpoint, chromatically descending scales, chromatically ascending scales (the same thing upside down what), and all kinds of other things which Members may find out for themselves.
« Last Edit: 08:58:39, 02-08-2008 by Sydney Grew » Logged
Baz
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« Reply #554 on: 10:48:44, 01-08-2008 »

[...] Perhaps the Member might care to examine Duetto number 2 (i.e. the one in F major), and then compare it with the chorale melody Wachet auf (noticing in particular the way the two ideas in the "subject" present a concatenated statement of phrases 1 and 2 of the chorale melody). We do not ever bet (on the horses, the wretched football, or even the rip-off Lottery), but if we did we think our money would be very safely invested in a musical connection between this piece and its supposed chorale derivative!

"Give it a try!" we urge. Who knows - before this thread runs out we may have solved the problem of these 4 duetti and their chorale derivations!

Well! We have had a quick look but not managed to catch sight of any grazing sheep at all. If which we are by no means saying he is not the Member is correct in his presumption the correspondence must then be a recondite one and we hope he himself will expound it for the edification of the Group. But in doing so it is advisable we think to heed the recent words of one of Britain's most respected authorities: "We can of course simply go on writing novels and 'who-dun-its' and believe them to be true. Alternatively we can take the documented evidence and try to learn from it."


We were of course not entirely sure exactly how to spell "who-dun-its" and ended up getting it wrong (as we so often do over such matters of vernacular syntax). So we are grateful to the Member for showing us the (now-blatantly-obvious) correct spelling. It is funny - is not it - how silly we are over such small things. But I suspect we all are from time to time.

On the matter of Duetto II and my suggestion (for suggestion it was only!) of a latent connection with Wachet auf, we are all 'novelists' at heart - though few of us manage to hang them together with sufficient conviction, persuasion or tightness for them to 'work'. But what we had in mind was this (and let us imagine the key of the chorale to be the same as that of the Duetto):

The Duetto (as we can hear from the crackpot version just submitted) begins as follows:

F A C Bb A Bb C D E F C F A G F E D C...

If we now align these to the salient notes of the chorale we obtain the following concordance:

CHORALE: F A C [C C C  D C]     C F C FGA G F E D C

DUETTO:  F A C [Bb A Bb C D E]    F C F  A G F E D C


The square brackets indicate only how we view a possible free joining of phrases 1 and 2 of the chorale melody (which are here separated by a few extra spaces). The extent to which (if at all) this story might (or might not) unfold would require more in-depth analysis of the piece we feel.

Baz
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