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Author Topic: At Least Ninety-Six Crackpot Interpretations  (Read 11251 times)
Baz
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« Reply #510 on: 20:31:47, 23-07-2008 »

It's pretty generalised, but for what it's worth I'm with autoharp on this one. The performance seems uncomfortably insecure in tempo - as if the wrong basic tempo had been chosen initially and adjustments necessarily made as the performance goes on. Also (without a score to hand), aren't the dotted quavers in the LH about two thirds in cut woefully short?

For perfection and consistency of rhythm, and exactitude in the performance of all written note lengths, Mr Grew has provided the perfect model to satisfy all Baroque connoisseurs. We should all do well to emulate it in its mechanical precision, and I shall be contacting Gustav tonight to appraise him of the situation.

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Baz
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #511 on: 00:57:47, 24-07-2008 »

There are some interesting citations in Robert Donington's The Interpretation of Early Music, two pages of which appear below:



These might be of some help, but in the end I feel that a player's sense of "good taste" has the final word. Unfortunately many players seem to lack this (!) and we are none the wiser.

Baz
Still.

There are are there not rather a lot of quotations there from after the Baroque period insofar as one may speak of such a thing as a single entity may be said to have drawn slowingly or otherwise to a close. Do we not see 1753, 1762 and 1787 as dates for Carl Philipp Emanuel's contributions? Was he not by this time occupied with his own Empfindsamer Stil?

We admit to having been greatly pleased in recent years by the rejection of the closing rallentando as sometimes but not always practised by Céline and Pablo of Carpenter's Coffee Shop - not so much that it revealed to us something we had not suspected, more that it verified our own already long held suspicion that the inherited slowing was anything but a musical necessity.

Good taste, indeed. Admittedly not something we have often been accused of possessing.
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Baz
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« Reply #512 on: 07:55:23, 24-07-2008 »


...There are are there not rather a lot of quotations there from after the Baroque period insofar as one may speak of such a thing as a single entity may be said to have drawn slowingly or otherwise to a close. Do we not see 1753, 1762 and 1787 as dates for Carl Philipp Emanuel's contributions? Was he not by this time occupied with his own Empfindsamer Stil?


True - but Frescobaldi (1615) peeped into view there. He was, however, speaking of his Toccatas. Since these are mostly slow, quasi-improvisatory pieces he was really speaking about the need to interpret the notation with a certain freedom (including the drawing out of cadences). As such this is really only tangential to the annoying matter of applying habitual rallentandi at the ends of movements.

Baz
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #513 on: 09:19:24, 24-07-2008 »


The G major Prelude, which has here given rise to a certain amount of discussion, is mentioned we happened to-day to see by Wanda in her Commentary, wherein she writes:

"May I make a confession? This Prelude has been my companion since the time I first touched the keyboard. It is difficult, but how invigorating! I have spent hours and hours attempting to master measure 13 and the following measures. Have I done it?"

Well as it happens that passage at "measure" thirteen (she means "bar" but she is writing for Northern Americans) is the very one where we had a slight quibble with Gustav's rendition. So we cannot resist the temptation to hear how Wanda plays it after those "hours and hours" of attempts, although we have already heard all kinds of people play it in all kinds of ways.

She is refreshingly exhilarating is not she? She even adds her own original passage at the start of bar eleven, and her touch seems not dissimilar to that of Gustav in those crucial bars. (As a Member has kindly explained the harpsichordist has to remove his finger from a key well in advance if he is to give himself time to put it down again on the same key in time for the beat.) What is it about those particular bars then we wonder that would have given her her "hours and hours" of trouble?

-oOo-

As for to-day, we have come to the G minor Prelude; here is the interpretation of the daily dunderhead (rapid-share / send-space - a few rustic instruments over a drone; no turn at the end).

And here by way of contrast are those of two ladies: Wanda's again and Rosalyn's.

Wanda tells us that this piece is "addressed to an ornament and its interpretation. Beautiful and of great importance, the slide (German Schleifer) is often misunderstood by the interpreters of to-day. Bach and the French clavecinistes generally indicate the slide by a sign; but in this Prelude Bach, who wishes to avoid misunderstanding, writes it in notes (the second measure and similar ones) and gives us a priceless [sic - she means 'invaluable'] indication of the manner in which it should be scanned."
« Last Edit: 09:22:44, 24-07-2008 by Sydney Grew » Logged
Baz
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« Reply #514 on: 09:51:16, 24-07-2008 »

...So we cannot resist the temptation to hear how Wanda plays it


Well she was certainly flying on all cylinders there was she not? In showing how versatile a double-manual knitting machine can be, she managed (to our ears) to drop only a single stitch. This was at the end of bar 5 where her move down to the lower manual did not quite coincide with the movement of the bobbin (we noticed an extra semiquaver creep into the process). But as a musical seamstress she again showed the art of invisible mending, and the piece thereafter zoomed its way through without losing any further stitches.

The funny thing was that to our ears her performance commenced by sounding as though she was playing upon a full organ (rather than a knitting machine), but our fears were soon dispelled by the arrival of bar 2.

Baz
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Baz
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« Reply #515 on: 10:14:39, 24-07-2008 »


As for to-day, we have come to the G minor Prelude; here is the interpretation of the daily dunderhead (rapid-share / send-space - a few rustic instruments over a drone; no turn at the end).


Just like the famous programme "I'm sorry I haven't a clue" claims to be "the antidote of panel games", I feel that today's crackpot offering stands as the antidote to Parkinson's Disease.

The calm of the opening is accompanied (RH) by a frenetic quivering at once as alarming as it is out of character with the piece. But it is immediately suppressed (bar 2) by the arrival of a glorious Bachian melody. However, it then returns (again in the RH) at bar 3, demonstrating that the disease is total and irreversible.

But that glorious melody returns again at bar 4, and the symptoms immediately disappear - this time for no less than 2 bars. But we find that a double dose of "melody" is still insufficient, and the shaking syndrome returns for a second time (LH) at bar 7.

But we know that the medicine is "working", because at bar 8 that melody enters again, and this time the shaking fit subsides for as many as three bars! It makes a return however (LH) at bar 11, but is again suppressed by the return (and indeed development) of the lovely melody at bar 12.

So captivating is this melody (and we can now understand the magic exercised by the Pied Piper of Hamelin) that the shaking disappears completely for the remainder of the movement. Yet in a sinister Hitchcock-style touch of genius, it makes itself felt again on the final note, as if to stress that even the finest melodies of Bach are insufficient to quell the chronic syndrome of the Shaking Disease.

It is a lesson to us all is not it?

Baz
« Last Edit: 07:54:02, 25-07-2008 by Baz » Logged
Sydney Grew
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« Reply #516 on: 11:44:35, 24-07-2008 »

Whereas, in the words of Sir Donald, "the shakes should have swollen out like the messa di voca of the best bel canto" should they have not?
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Baz
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« Reply #517 on: 13:25:57, 24-07-2008 »

Whereas, in the words of Sir Donald, "the shakes should have swollen out like the messa di voca of the best bel canto" should they have not?


A basic question arises with these long trills: should they commence upon the upper or the main note? Tovey does not think this worthy of discussion, presumably because he considers the matter so self-evident that explanation is unnecessary. But if one studies his edition it is transparent from his fingering suggestions that they should (in his view) commence upon the main notes and not the upper.

That being so, and assuming that the trills last for a complete bar, it seems to us illogical then for him to have asserted that the trills should "end on the last semiquaver of the bar". Presuming the pattern of (say) bar one is that the trill begins upon G and shakes at a rate equating with demisiquavers (i.e. two notes of the trill to one note of the LH rhythm) it is inevitable is it not that the figure will continue right up to the last demisemiquaver, after which (within the same pulse) it will descend to the G commencing at bar 2.

The purpose of these trills (it seems to us) is in no sense melodic (unlike most such ornaments which are melodically decorative, especially at cadence figures). In these cases however we feel that the purpose of trilling in this manner is purely a means of prolonging the notes so as to maintain their intensity and to prevent what would otherwise have been a single attack from decaying (thereby losing the harmony). We feel therefore that it is quite illogical in these particular cases for the trills to commence upon the upper note (contrary to most other cases). But we do not feel the pace of the trills should ever exceed the value of the smallest note-value to be found in the piece overall (in this case the demisemiquaver). Yet we also feel that within this basic pattern players should be able to provide a flexibility (perhaps beginning more slowly and slightly increasing the pace and intensity as the bar progresses). This will avoid the piece sounding like "typewriter music" (or, indeed, "knitting-machine music").

What do others think of this we wonder?

Baz
« Last Edit: 13:28:07, 24-07-2008 by Baz » Logged
Sydney Grew
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« Reply #518 on: 09:54:01, 25-07-2008 »

Rosalyn's performance provides a useful example of irregular but effective shakes does it not? They sound like an almost random but pleasant enough mixture of triplets and quintuplets.

To-day we come to the Fugue in G minor from Book I of Bach's key-board exercises for advanced students (rapid-share / send-space). It is a long and serious work; as Tovey for instance points out its counter-subject is derived from its subject by simply inverting the two figures thereof and reversing their order. Wanda in her Commentary makes two interesting points. The first is that "like all musical thoughts in minor keys which begin on an upbeat, it expresses torment and grief." This connects with the subject of our thread about Mozart's Fortieth does it not, but we are not at all convinced that she is right.

Her second remark is this: "Full justice is due to the last two measures [i.e. 'bars'] in which Bach gives the soprano a melody of supreme beauty." The reason or explanation of this is clear to us: it is because of the half-diminished seventh on the first beat of the final bar. In all the most beautiful melodies of composers from Purcell to Rachmanninoff this combination of notes is present and makes the crucial contribution. And in this case the wonderful verticalities are not confined to that half-diminished seventh but include also the seventh quaver of the second-last bar: A-D-G-C, a modernistical combination worthy of Schönberg himself in 1908.

Wanda further points out that the theme of this Fugue may also be found in Cantata 106, "die allerbeste Zeit."

Now here as comparison is Samuel's interpretation, but actually it is in-comparable. It is not merely expressive; it is very very expressive, expressive in the extreme. That is one of the marks of genius is it not, to take things to extremes. We believe he had the right approach or attitude here; once one decides to begin being expressive that is one should not satisfy oneself with half measure but should be as expressive as one can possibly be. And listen to the outcome!
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Baz
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« Reply #519 on: 10:32:27, 25-07-2008 »

Rosalyn's performance provides a useful example of irregular but effective shakes does it not? They sound like an almost random but pleasant enough mixture of triplets and quintuplets.

To-day we come to the Fugue in G minor from Book I of Bach's key-board exercises for advanced students (rapid-share / send-space). It is a long and serious work; as Tovey for instance points out its counter-subject is derived from its subject by simply inverting the two figures thereof and reversing their order. Wanda in her Commentary makes two interesting points. The first is that "like all musical thoughts in minor keys which begin on an upbeat, it expresses torment and grief." This connects with the subject of our thread about Mozart's Fortieth does it not, but we are not at all convinced that she is right.

Her second remark is this: "Full justice is due to the last two measures [i.e. 'bars'] in which Bach gives the soprano a melody of supreme beauty." The reason or explanation of this is clear to us: it is because of the half-diminished seventh on the first beat of the final bar. In all the most beautiful melodies of composers from Purcell to Rachmanninoff this combination of notes is present and makes the crucial contribution. And in this case the wonderful verticalities are not confined to that half-diminished seventh but include also the seventh quaver of the second-last bar: A-D-G-C, a modernistical combination worthy of Schönberg himself in 1908.

Wanda further points out that the theme of this Fugue may also be found in Cantata 106, "die allerbeste Zeit."

Now here as comparison is Samuel's interpretation, but actually it is in-comparable. It is not merely expressive; it is very very expressive, expressive in the extreme. That is one of the marks of genius is it not, to take things to extremes. We believe he had the right approach or attitude here; once one decides to begin being expressive that is one should not satisfy oneself with half measure but should be as expressive as one can possibly be. And listen to the outcome!


Well Mr Grew - if we may say so our crackpot this morning wins hands down. Well done! We must say that we have never before heard the delicate tracery of this particular counterpoint (with its wonderful and intricate part-crossings) so clearly and artistically rendered. The pace seems to us completely "spot on", and it flows beautifully and unassumingly from beat to beat showing a reverence and empathy for the composer's true intentions.

BUT...contrasted with that is the completely barbaric TRAVESTY perpetrated by Samuel! Who did he think he was? We should have thought that he might (at such a languid and varied tempo) at least have managed to play all the right notes, but no! In bar 19 (surely one of the simplest in the piece?) what do we hear in the RH on beat 4 we wonder? Well it sounds as though he has rejected Bach's notes for the inner voice, and prefers to play a C instead of a D. We are not able to agree with him that this represents an improvement upon Bach's own choice of notes (and we are unaware of any edition that sanctions it). But there is more...

He does not understand what a "fugue" actually is we believe. It is clear to us on the basis of this performance that he thinks a fugue is nothing other than a "Fantasia". We believe that to be the only possible explanation for such a deliberate wish a) to "muck around" so excessively with the rhythm, and b) to keep hammering out the first 5 notes of the theme whenever he notices them (almost as if the piece is a Fancie upon a Grounde). We are - in view of this - particularly puzzled by his performance of bars 25-27 where (although he seems not to have noticed it) the LH develops sequentially the second half of the Subject, above which Bach has has cleverly created flowing 2-voice imitative counterpoint. Why we ask ourselves does Samuel dwell upon the RH while making the LH barely audible? (He has obviously not even noticed the material in the LH and made the logical connection it forges with the Subject!) We do not care for it - ANY OF IT!

Baz Angry
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Baz
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« Reply #520 on: 17:31:55, 25-07-2008 »

Speaking of the G Minor Prelude (book 1)...

Rosalyn's performance provides a useful example of irregular but effective shakes does it not? They sound like an almost random but pleasant enough mixture of triplets and quintuplets.

...it is true that it does, and we enjoyed her performance here more than we often do.

But we strongly feel that most performers take this movement too slowly (perhaps wallowing selfishly in the feeling of "minor mode", and sensing the written-out slides to be expressive of some Je ne sais quoi entity that - in truth - nobody knows!). If the movement is played at a proper speed (and by "proper" we mean only a slow speed that is still fast enough however for a feeling of 4-beats-per-bar to be sensed) the trills do not stand out so aggressively in isolation from the rest of the texture.

With regard to these trills (and taking them within the above framework), we had in mind something along the following lines (which we have impishly created purely for clarification and the entertainment [insofar as it might entertain them] of members)...

CLICK

Baz
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #521 on: 09:20:11, 26-07-2008 »

. . . something along the following lines (which we have impishly created purely for clarification and the entertainment [insofar as it might entertain them] of members)...
CLICK
Bravo!

To-day we progress to Book II and the G major Prelude therefrom. Here is an admirably absurd and automatical rendition: (rapid-share / send-space); it goes through the motions merely and looks forward only to the end. But the work is indeed a slight one, probably dashed off in thirty minutes while Bach was waiting for his luncheon to be served.

As contrast who better than Gustav? He succeeds despite everything in finding in this inauspicious little piece a good deal that is of interest. We do however wish to raise one question about his behaviour. He obeys Bach's first repeat sign but ignores the second. Perhaps his excuse is that he thinks he is playing some sort of sonata, but otherwise neither rhyme nor reason support him is that not so?
« Last Edit: 00:50:26, 27-07-2008 by Sydney Grew » Logged
Baz
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« Reply #522 on: 10:14:01, 26-07-2008 »


To-day we progress to Book II and the G major Prelude therefrom. Here is an absurdly automatical rendition: (rapid-share / send-space); it goes through the motions merely and looks forward only to the end. But the work is indeed a one, probably dashed off in thirty minutes while Bach was waiting for his luncheon to be served.

As contrast who better than Gustav? He succeeds despite everything in finding in this inauspicious little piece a good deal that is of interest. We do however wish to raise one question about his behaviour. He obeys Bach's first repeat sign but ignores the second. Perhaps his excuse is that he thinks he is playing some sort of sonata, but otherwise neither rhyme nor reason support him is that not so?


As we carried our laptop into the garden with a cup of coffee, we awaited the daily breakfast to be served up dutifully by Mr Grew. When it arrived we were delighted to see that feeding time today consisted of Bach's G Major prelude (book 2). So we were half expecting that this simple little morceau would be accompanied by the following prescriptions from Sir Donald Tovey:

Quote
In bars 37-40 the finger-staccato may be abandoned for a close touch admitting a darkening crescendo which, however, must not be allowed to become formidable, since the tonic recapitulation from bar 43 to the end admits no more emphasis than the original statement of bars 11-16.

So our delight will be evident that Mr Grew spared us, upon such a glorious brillig morning, the slithiness of The Tove as it gyres and gimbles its polemic irrelevances.

Regarding Gustav's lack of repeat for the second half, we have noticed that it is always his custom to adopt this method throughout the whole of Bach's '48 preludes (when repeats are indicated that is). But we feel that while for some movements this is acceptable (and we have in mind such works as the D Major prelude from Book 2, where the second half - being about twice the length of the first - provides a perfect balance with a repeated first half when played only once) for others it is not. This movement is a case in point, presenting as it does two halves of almost identical length. To repeat merely the first half (only) does we feel result in an unbalanced rendition. In these cases (as here) we feel strongly that the initial return from dominant tonality back to tonic (as the first repeat makes its effect) actually requires a counter-balancing effect of a return from the tonic to the dominant in the second half. Gustav here does not do this, and we feel that the first section is accorded an unnecessary double weighting overall. This is strange we feel because all the first section actually does is move (according to normal procedure) from the tonic to the dominant, while most of the tonal interest lies in the second half (where more related keys are explored). We positively yearn therefore to hear it a second time and feel disappointed that Gustav confiscates from us this experience purely out of (shall we say) "procedural consistency".

We also deem Gustav's tempo to be unnecessarily staid in this performance. Why did he not give it (if we may descend into the vernacular) some "oomph" as he shows in (inter alia) the A Minor Prelude from Book 1. While we are mostly in complete empathy with the attitudes and styles Gustav presents to us, we retain also the right to be critical when we feel him to have fallen short of our expectations!

Baz
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #523 on: 10:20:06, 27-07-2008 »

To-day's wet and witless interpretation is of Bach's Fugue in G major from the Second Book of his didactic exercises (rapid-share and send-space). Not many of his works are written in the style of Liszt, but this is one of them. The rhythm is very variable - indeed the work would be best described as a study in the variation of tempo - and we have discovered that it is best to begin quite slowly and not attain "top speed" until somewhere around bar fifteen. Tovey calls the work "the lightest Fuguetta in all Bach's mature works," and reminds us that in its first version - which we have not seen - there was no counterpoint at all, merely an accompaniment of homo-phonic four-part quaver chords.

As is well known, the clarinet parts in Baroque music are never explicitly notated, but must be deduced from internal evidence. This work is one such example: it is clearly designed as a clarinet trio, and to suggest its ever having been intended for instruments such as the harpsichord, clavichord, organ, or piano-forte would be absurdity. The lilting soprano melody which quite unexpectedly occupies the last eleven bars of coda is a tremendous bonus.

Let us nevertheless listen to what both Samuel and Wanda manage to make of it with their unsophisticated equipment. Wanda's run is quite "something" is not it?
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Baz
Guest
« Reply #524 on: 11:35:02, 27-07-2008 »

To-day's wet and witless interpretation is of Bach's Fugue in G major from the Second Book of his didactic exercises (rapid-share and send-space). Not many of his works are written in the style of Liszt, but this is one of them. The rhythm is very variable - indeed the work would be best described as a study in the variation of tempo - and we have discovered that it is best to begin quite slowly and not attain "top speed" until somewhere around bar fifteen. Tovey calls the work "the lightest Fuguetta in all Bach's mature works," and reminds us that in its first version - which we have not seen - there was no counterpoint at all, merely an accompaniment of homo-phonic four-part quaver chords.

As is well known, the clarinet parts in Baroque music are never explicitly notated, but must be deduced from internal evidence. This work is one such example: it is clearly designed as a clarinet trio, and to suggest its ever having been intended for instruments such as the harpsichord, clavichord, organ, or piano-forte would be absurdity. The lilting soprano melody which quite unexpectedly occupies the last eleven bars of coda is a tremendous bonus.

Let us nevertheless listen to what both Samuel and Wanda manage to make of it with their unsophisticated equipment. Wanda's run is quite "something" is not it?


...And the remarkable thing about Wanda is that she managed the need to oil her knitting machine only once - grinding to a halt gracefully at bar 62 to prepare the equipment (in tip-top condition) for those impending demisemiquavers! This ensured a smooth and unblemished conclusion, embodying a mixture of cross-stitches and pearls.

But what of Samuel?! We have to say that he foxed us! We listened most carefully to his RH in bar 55 in order to examine what was wrong with it (note-wise that is). And we have to admit that even though we had for long prided ourself about the quality and sensitivity of our natural audio facilities, we were damned if we could discover which of the six semiquavers was the wrong note! We suspected that the note played on beat 3 was spurious, but his performance is so ridiculously fast that we were not sure. SO...we tried a little experiment to find out...

...by slowing down his performance by 50% (and let us not worry about the resulting poor sound quality, but instead be thankful for small mercies) we were able conclusively to prove that the rogue note was indeed where we had supposed, and that he plays an A instead of a G...

Listen for yourselves! starting at bar 45

While we are unaware of the sources The Slithy Tove has in mind, we do ourself possess what is thought to be (at least one of) the earliest - the London BL autograph, and this appears to us to be notated in completely the normal manner. (It is difficult for us to think of any other way of notating a 3-voice fugue, and even more difficult for us to believe that it was ever effected with 4-part chords.) We do, of course, have nothing against "homo-phonic" writing provided we are prepared (as we are) to remain "politically correct" about it! It should be remembered that Art so often acts as a leader to politics, and that when Tovey freely spoke about things "homo-phonic" this was very many years before it became politically incorrect any longer to be "homo-phobic".

With regard to Mr Grew's interesting idea that this fugue should begin more slowly and accelerate as it proceeds, we feel that this idea should not be so lightly dismissed! There are it seems good grounds for believing that this practice existed as a means of discharging Baroque movements that otherwise were of minimal intrinsic musical interest.

Indeed it is now some 2 years since we came into the possession of an interesting example from the works of Handel (this being kindly sent to us by another distinguished member of this MB - and we hope he will not mind our sharing the experience with others?). This piece was, purportedly, performed in this version by a little-known (but evidently highly competent) specialist group based in Cheshire, known as the Knutsford Chamber-Pot Ensemble. Their only apparent shortcoming is the trill at the final cadence which seems to us to begin on the main note rather than the upper (although we are still examining this forensically in order to be certain). But this is real food for thought is not it?

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Baz
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