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Author Topic: At Least Ninety-Six Crackpot Interpretations  (Read 11251 times)
Baz
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« Reply #480 on: 00:15:22, 21-07-2008 »

LOST BACH PRELUDE AND FUGUE DISCOVERED...

At last we are able to communicate to members the discovery of a long-lost Prelude and Fugue in E minor by J. S. Bach!!! We discovered it, after very many years' effort, quite by accident (although for a long time we had been aware of its former existence).

It turned up while we were recently journeying to Bolton (via Eccles) and had occasion to visit the local library. Our attention had been captivated by the discovery that in its vaults resided an old 18th-century German music manuscript from Weimar bearing the title "Codex Bazironensis". To our utter amazement we discovered at last the reality of a PRELUDE AND FUGUE IN E MINOR previously unknown.

Furthermore, it turned out that the Subject of the Fugue was none other than that well known as the Fugue in F# Minor from Book 2 of the '48. For many years we had thought two things about this F# Minor Fugue: a) it was probably originally in a different key, and b) the development as shown in the known version was poorly-conceived. You can imagine our astonishment therefore upon discovering this alternative version and noting a) that it was indeed in the key of E Minor (not F#), and b) that the subject was (unlike the familiar version in F# Minor) here treated with extensive passages of STRETTO! Furthermore we noted that while the usual version "ran out of ideas" fairly quickly, and had to introduce a second new idea after the exposition, this newly-discovered version was entirely contiguous, and flowed seamlessly without a break - merely (as in so many other Bach fugues) creating newer developments and expansions of the materials introduced entirely within the Exposition.

So we believe that - at last - we are in a unique position of giving Members of this MB a ground-breaking "first hearing" of this alternative (and, we believe, superior) version. BUT... there is more!

It also includes a completely new Prelude previously unknown both to Bach scholars and to anybody else whatsoever.

We have accordingly been able to create the following performance for the delight of Members, and we hope they enjoy it...


Baz
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Sydney Grew
Guest
« Reply #481 on: 08:13:14, 21-07-2008 »

A marvellous discovery! And from internal evidence - those descending chromatics for one thing, and the incomparable contrapuntalism for another - it is obviously authentic. We think the composer's son, the so-called "English Bach," must have dug it out in 1764 when the boy Mozart visited England and left it behind after their concert tour up north.
« Last Edit: 09:53:59, 21-07-2008 by Sydney Grew » Logged
Baz
Guest
« Reply #482 on: 09:47:07, 21-07-2008 »

A marvellous discovery! And from internal evidence - those descending chromatics for one thing - it is obviously authentic. We think the composer's son, the so-called "English Bach," must have dug it out in 1764 when the boy Mozart visited England and left it behind after their concert tour up north.


We believe there to be another theory (which at this moment we are exploring). In 1748 poor old JSB - nearing blindness - took advice from a local "quack" and was informed that a then-recent discovery might effect a cure for his ailing eyesight.

It had been discovered that a certain "mystery ingredient" found only in Eccles cakes had an unusual therapeutic effect upon the eyes. (We infer that the myth was similar to that perpetrated during the Second World War concerning the beneficial effects of eating carrots).

It is believed by some that Bach, in a last-ditch effort to address his ailment, dispatched a hurried missive to the Mayor of Eccles for a 6-month supply of the famous "cakes", but that permission to undertake this arduous task was granted ONLY on the condition that the famous composer should donate freely a "Prelude and Fugue" for the Council's archives.

Baz
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Sydney Grew
Guest
« Reply #483 on: 09:58:58, 21-07-2008 »

Not a few Members have found it we expect difficult to dislodge from their minds the image of young Cowitch and his boots, and it is for them in particular that we to-day present as interlude this example - rapid-share / send-space - of flashing eighteenth-century footwork.

The little ensemble consists of oboe, pluckable saxophone, trumpet, and two feet on the organ

For those who do not know: while his fingers are hugely busy elsewhere, that striking bass line, with its strange striving ladder of ascending quavers at once and exultantly succeeded by a rapider semi-quaver descent, is controlled entirely by the feet of the executant!
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Baz
Guest
« Reply #484 on: 10:15:42, 21-07-2008 »

Not a few Members have found it we expect difficult to dislodge from their minds the image of young Cowitch and his boots, and it is for them in particular that we to-day present as interlude this example - rapid-share / send-space - of flashing eighteenth-century footwork.

The little ensemble consists of oboe, pluckable saxophone, trumpet, and two feet on the organ

For those who do not know: while his fingers are hugely busy elsewhere, that striking bass line, with its strange striving ladder of ascending quavers at once and exultantly succeeded by a rapider semi-quaver descent, is controlled entirely by the feet of the executant!


Very interesting Mr Grew! BUT I think the giant tripped himself up at the end did not he? Working (as you must have been doing) from that notoriously inaccurate Novello Edition, the tied note before the final leading note (highest voice) came out as a crotchet instead of a dotted crotchet (with the leading note C# not being a quaver as Bach wrote it!).

We can, should the Member require, post a scan of the original print to verify this fact!

Baz
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Sydney Grew
Guest
« Reply #485 on: 11:51:22, 21-07-2008 »

We can, should the Member require, post a scan of the original print . . .

That would be most interesting; but it could not possibly be a "requirement" - especially since we entirely believe the Member already, and he is right about Novello. Yet it is always fascinating to see Bach's manuscripts, and we speak of course not only for ourself but also on behalf of the throng of Members who we know "lurk" in this thread and are a little timid when it comes to contributing a message or a crackpot performance. When the C# is a quaver it does go better with the G# quaver in the bar before. . . .
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Baz
Guest
« Reply #486 on: 14:46:08, 21-07-2008 »

We can, should the Member require, post a scan of the original print . . .

That would be most interesting; but it could not possibly be a "requirement" - especially since we entirely believe the Member already, and he is right about Novello. Yet it is always fascinating to see Bach's manuscripts, and we speak of course not only for ourself but also on behalf of the throng of Members who we know "lurk" in this thread and are a little timid when it comes to contributing a message or a crackpot performance. When the C# is a quaver it does go better with the G# quaver in the bar before. . . .


My pleasure Mr Grew...







Baz
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Sydney Grew
Guest
« Reply #487 on: 02:12:19, 22-07-2008 »

We are most grateful to the Member for the view of those absorbing pages. What a long ledger-line it is which links bars ninety-seven ninety-eight and ninety-nine! We cannot we fear any longer trust either Sir John Frederick Bridge (1844-1924) British composer and organist of Westminster Abbey for over forty years or Mr. James Higgs (1829-1902) London organist and author of books on Fugue and modulation, between them responsible for the editing of the Novello edition.

We have long wondered in respect to the passage in the bass beginning at bar seventy-seven whether it too was intended to be played "on the pedals" but in the Member's images we see A) that Bach has not marked it Ped as he has other similar lines, and has in fact taken care to insert rests in the bass, and B) there is no point of clear abscission but on the contrary it turns into semi-quavers and soars away into upper regions. Do any organists nevertheless does any one know play at least the beginning of this line "on the pedals"? Could Bach have trickily intended it as a kind of test for supremely skilled pedallers willing to pedal upwards and onwards? And is it possible to throw some switches or pull some knobs so that when played on a manual it sounds the same anyway, even?

Finally is that not another error by Bach himself in bar four in that the second and third notes in the treble should be semi-quavers?
« Last Edit: 08:06:32, 22-07-2008 by Sydney Grew » Logged
Baz
Guest
« Reply #488 on: 09:35:45, 22-07-2008 »

We are most grateful to the Member for the view of those absorbing pages. What a long ledger-line it is which links bars ninety-seven ninety-eight and ninety-nine! We cannot we fear any longer trust either Sir John Frederick Bridge (1844-1924) British composer and organist of Westminster Abbey for over forty years or Mr. James Higgs (1829-1902) London organist and author of books on Fugue and modulation, between them responsible for the editing of the Novello edition.

We have long wondered in respect to the passage in the bass beginning at bar seventy-seven whether it too was intended to be played "on the pedals" but in the Member's images we see A) that Bach has not marked it Ped as he has other similar lines, and has in fact taken care to insert rests in the bass, and B) there is no point of clear abscission but on the contrary it turns into semi-quavers and soars away into upper regions. Do any organists nevertheless does any one know play at least the beginning of this line "on the pedals"? Could Bach have trickily intended it as a kind of test for supremely skilled pedallers willing to pedal upwards and onwards? And is it possible to throw some switches or pull some knobs so that when played on a manual it sounds the same anyway, even?

Finally is that not another error by Bach himself in bar four in that the second and third notes in the treble should be semi-quavers?


The Member again shows his critical astuteness and impresses us with his observations. He has indeed spotted one of a number of slight errors to be found throughout the collection, and quite rightly notices the incorrect notation in bar 4. Fortunately, as in the few other cases to be found (though not in this piece), the vertical alignments remove any ambiguity as to what Bach intended.

The truth is (we must clarify) that the publication of Bach's Clavier-Übung III was hastily prepared under difficult conditions, not the least of which was that Bach remained still undecided about certain pieces and their ordering - even within days of the copy deadline! Some changes were actually made to the Title page even after it had been engraved! Since the preparation of copper plates required the composer's handwriting and musical notation to be set out completely in reverse one notices occasional errors of the kind the Member has cited. There are various books and articles concerning the genesis and production of Clavier-Übung III to which we can point those who may be interested.

Baz
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Sydney Grew
Guest
« Reply #489 on: 10:25:28, 22-07-2008 »

Having thus far heard Bach in C, Bach in F, Bach in B flat, Bach in D sharp-cum-E flat, Bach in G sharp-cum-A flat, Bach in C sharp, Bach in F sharp, Bach in B, Bach in E, Bach in A, and Bach in D, we are now poised to modulate onwards to Bach in G. The G major Prelude from Bach's first Book - here (rapid-share / send-space) given in a truly loopy interpretation - bears another unusual time signature itself verging upon the crackpot: 24/16 on the treble staff and C on the bass. Tovey calls it "whimsical" but no, Bach's firm intention lies behind it. Tovey goes on despite this to suggest as tempo "a very lively eight in a bar rather than a mere [sic] four."

As comparison we present two new comers to this thread. The first is a clavichordist, Jaroslav by name. Thus far the only clavichordist we have had was Mr. Patio's "dear old Ralph." The clavichord is capable Vit tells us of conjuring up a vast wealth of shades of expression; indeed no other keyboard instrument responds in a similar way to the touch of the player's fingers. The clavichordist is able to determine through the action of his fingers not only the dynamics of the individual tones, but also their colour, sonority, and even their pitch. Hence the possibility of playing correctly in all keys, even given less than equal temperament, as is here exemplified. Jaroslav plays a modern instrument put together in 1999 by Martin Kather, who uses his own system of tempering, consisting of the tuning of eight close fifths, one wider one (A flat - E flat), and three perfect ones (B - F sharp - C sharp - G sharp). His clavichord is modelled upon an instrument built by David Tannenberg in 1760, with a tone range from F to F 3'. It has a diapason of 335 millimetres on C 2'. Typologically it is an unfretted or unbound clavichord, with two unison-tuned strings attached to each key. The sole exception to this rule is represented by the bottom octave (F - E), where one of each pair of strings is tuned an octave higher, i.e. in the 4" position. The strings are metal and the dimensions of the frame are 167 x 49 x 17 centimetres. Despite all that Jaroslav's rendition does not sound quite right does it! We cannot imagine Bach playing it like that.

Our second new comer is Walter, a famous pianist. He plays the Prelude about twice as fast as the crackpot and four times as fast as Jaroslav, and fluffs a good many notes in his haste does not he. Bach would give him an F minus as a seventh-rater we think. Is not our own anonymous crackpot loopy or not more satisfying here than either of these two deluded blighters?
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Baz
Guest
« Reply #490 on: 14:16:15, 22-07-2008 »

Having thus far heard Bach in C, Bach in F, Bach in B flat, Bach in D sharp-cum-E flat, Bach in G sharp-cum-A flat, Bach in C sharp, Bach in F sharp, Bach in B, Bach in E, Bach in A, and Bach in D, we are now poised to modulate onwards to Bach in G. The G major Prelude from Bach's first Book - here (rapid-share / send-space) given in a truly loopy interpretation - bears another unusual time signature itself verging upon the crackpot: 24/16 on the treble staff and C on the bass. Tovey calls it "whimsical" but no, Bach's firm intention lies behind it. Tovey goes on despite this to suggest as tempo "a very lively eight in a bar rather than a mere [sic] four."

As comparison we present two new comers to this thread. The first is a clavichordist, Jaroslav by name. Thus far the only clavichordist we have had was Mr. Patio's "dear old Ralph." The clavichord is capable Vit tells us of conjuring up a vast wealth of shades of expression; indeed no other keyboard instrument responds in a similar way to the touch of the player's fingers. The clavichordist is able to determine through the action of his fingers not only the dynamics of the individual tones, but also their colour, sonority, and even their pitch. Hence the possibility of playing correctly in all keys, even given less than equal temperament, as is here exemplified. Jaroslav plays a modern instrument put together in 1999 by Martin Kather, who uses his own system of tempering, consisting of the tuning of eight close fifths, one wider one (A flat - E flat), and three perfect ones (B - F sharp - C sharp - G sharp). His clavichord is modelled upon an instrument built by David Tannenberg in 1760, with a tone range from F to F 3'. It has a diapason of 335 millimetres on C 2'. Typologically it is an unfretted or unbound clavichord, with two unison-tuned strings attached to each key. The sole exception to this rule is represented by the bottom octave (F - E), where one of each pair of strings is tuned an octave higher, i.e. in the 4" position. The strings are metal and the dimensions of the frame are 167 x 49 x 17 centimetres. Despite all that Jaroslav's rendition does not sound quite right does it! We cannot imagine Bach playing it like that.

Our second new comer is Walter, a famous pianist. He plays the Prelude about twice as fast as the crackpot and four times as fast as Jaroslav, and fluffs a good many notes in his haste does not he. Bach would give him an F minus as a seventh-rater we think. Is not our own anonymous crackpot loopy or not more satisfying here than either of these two deluded blighters?


The first blighter - Jaroslav - plays too slowly for this piece. Our enjoyment of his playing was marred we feel by the nagging need throughout to wonder where he had managed to place the microphone! After due consideration we are constrained to believe that it must have been placed actually inside the instrument - id est between the soundboard and the base of the box! We say this confidently because our own clavichord fulfils all the specifications of his, yet our ears (at a distance away from the strings of barely 2 feet) are able only to hear a very very soft sound that would not be able to withstand that of a pin-drop (should anyone in the vicinity be careless enough to drop one).

Walter - we presume "Gieseking" - is the worse blighter of the two however. We do not feel this - we know it! The velocity he adopts is so insanely fast as to indicate beyond any doubt whatsoever - even to the most sceptical listener - that he (Walter) is unable to comprehend any difference whatsoever between a Bach Prelude, a Czerny Study, and a Chopin Etude. They are all - apparently - written only to allow a pianist to "show off" his ability to deliver a sequence of rapidly-moving notes in the shortest time conceivably possible, and in doing so to "WIN"!

In truth we are inclined to agree with Mr Grew that the crackpot version does indeed come closest to the conception of the composer. If anybody should doubt this, we invite them to listen to GUSTAV whose perfect rendition adopts almost the same tempo as Mr Grew's "anonymous crackpot". Indeed the only salient difference is that because Gustav is a human being rather than a computer we feel through his playing a natural flexibility that (without hindering the rhythmic impetus and movement) allows the melodic and harmonic elements to sing through clearly, and by these to convey a subtle sense of phrasing and dynamics.

Baz
« Last Edit: 14:17:53, 22-07-2008 by Baz » Logged
Sydney Grew
Guest
« Reply #491 on: 02:09:26, 23-07-2008 »

. . . because Gustav is a human being rather than a computer we feel through his playing a natural flexibility that (without hindering the rhythmic impetus and movement) allows the melodic and harmonic elements to sing through clearly, and by these to convey a subtle sense of phrasing and dynamics.

Gustav is indeed very good - most of the time. If we may say so though he displays a small but nonetheless regrettable lapse of taste and discrimination in bars eleven to fifteen inclusive. All those quavers in the upper part should sing forth loudly in a wholly legato way in contrast to the triplets that surround them should not they! It makes no æsthetic sense to cut them off short as Gustav does. In the case of Jaroslav too especially in bar fifteen we hear a shortcoming similar to but not as pronounced as that of Gustav.

As for Walter Gieseking we can still scarcely believe our ears. He manages with this recording to deflate in an instant his entire and hitherto considerable reputation. As another Member has already said in the similar case of - Edwin was it - he could so easily have gone back and re-recorded it, but evidently did not consider a simple correct performance of Bach's written notes to be of sufficient importance. No wonder he was "renowned for his Debussy and Ravel"!
« Last Edit: 06:37:37, 23-07-2008 by Sydney Grew » Logged
Baz
Guest
« Reply #492 on: 08:42:13, 23-07-2008 »

. . . because Gustav is a human being rather than a computer we feel through his playing a natural flexibility that (without hindering the rhythmic impetus and movement) allows the melodic and harmonic elements to sing through clearly, and by these to convey a subtle sense of phrasing and dynamics.

Gustav is indeed very good - most of the time. If we may say so though he displays a small but nonetheless regrettable lapse of taste and discrimination in bars eleven to fifteen inclusive. All those quavers in the upper part should sing forth loudly in a wholly legato way in contrast to the triplets that surround them should not they! It makes no ĉsthetic sense to cut them off short as Gustav does. In the case of Jaroslav too especially in bar fifteen we hear a shortcoming similar to but not as pronounced as that of Gustav.


We urge the Member to listen again for we are not certain that his account of bars 11 to 15 is in accordance with reality.

The bars concerned use in the RH a sequential pattern consisting of six semiquavers followed by two quavers, each statement articulating a musical phrase (which is thereby repeated in sequence). The first quaver in each pair is a written-out appoggiatura that resolves downwards on to the second quaver. But each of these second quavers a) marks the end of the phrase, and b) must of necessity in any case be shortened since the same pitch is repeated at the commencement of the next part of the sequence.

To our own ears Gustav plays each and every note of this RH passage legato except for the final quaver in each pattern which is lifted so as to mark the phrase end, and to allow for the note repetition that is to mark the beginning of each next phrase.

The ear can be tricked into believing otherwise only because of the LH arpeggios which - even though Gustav still plays them legato - can have on the harpsichord a percussive effect that perhaps takes the ear away from the RH quavers.

Baz
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Sydney Grew
Guest
« Reply #493 on: 09:39:27, 23-07-2008 »

. . . our own clavichord . . .

Long ago almost every Englishman ran to a clavichord in his parlour but now the Member finds himself among the fortunate few does not he. Is it then possible does he think that we might hear it in something?

We shall indeed listen again to Gustav with the aid of a sort of oscilloscope thing and present results in due course. In the mean time may we point out that the notes most strikingly and inappropriately short are the third in bar thirteen, the fifth in bar fourteen, and the fifth in bar fifteen, all that is to say following a rest. We long to hear them longer!

To-day's very daft interpretation is of the Fugue in G major from Bach's first Book (rapid-share or send-space). As Tovey says, it is very rich in its themes. It is also very difficult to play at exactly the right tempo. Riemann - perhaps in an attempt to titillate his readers - remarks on the subject's "wanton leaps from the under-fourth and the under-leading-note."

As comparison let us listen first to Jaroslav again, and then to Glenn. Each of them gives a worthwhile performance although one is around twice as fast as the other! At first we had intended to present Samuel's here, but upon hearing his rendition of the G minor Fugue we thought it so wonderful that in two days' time we shall present that instead. Incidentally a recording of his twelve Sonatas has now arrived, many of them the first recorded performances. In the liner notes we read that in 1914 Samuel was the first pianist in Russia to perform Bach's complete Well-Tempered Clavier in concert. He was a very cultured man, spiritual, modest, and with a profound dislike of self-promotion. After his expiry in 1962 his deeply admiring pupils published his book, entitled "Pianism as an Art." Does any Member know it?
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autoharp
*****
Posts: 2778



« Reply #494 on: 10:34:14, 23-07-2008 »

. . . because Gustav is a human being rather than a computer we feel through his playing a natural flexibility that (without hindering the rhythmic impetus and movement) allows the melodic and harmonic elements to sing through clearly, and by these to convey a subtle sense of phrasing and dynamics.

Gustav is indeed very good - most of the time.

I'm a bit surprised by that: his "rhythm" seems a bit awkward and inconsistent to me - rushed 4th beats and the like. Is he not Mr. Varyspeed?
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