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Author Topic: At Least Ninety-Six Crackpot Interpretations  (Read 11251 times)
Baz
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« Reply #465 on: 11:15:09, 16-07-2008 »

The three-part Fugue in D minor from the first of Bach's Books (here - rapid-share / send-space - in the usual non-compos-mentis interpretion) has a rather ungainly and unmelodious subject which is nonetheless very suitable for fuguistical treatment.

Sometimes we feel that the Member struggles for ever more accurate and "realistic" terminologies. We cannot help wondering whether by non-compos-mentis he really has in mind "compost-mentis"?

Baz
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Baz
Guest
« Reply #466 on: 16:24:30, 16-07-2008 »

The three-part Fugue in D minor from the first of Bach's Books (here - rapid-share / send-space - in the usual non-compos-mentis interpretion) has a rather ungainly and unmelodious subject which is nonetheless very suitable for fuguistical treatment. That is to say, it begins with five assorted quavers, which are followed by a little motif built of four semi-quavers and a leap, and then a couple of crotchets with a trill thrown in. In the middle of all that we also find an ascending scale, three descending thirds, a turn, and a modulation to the dominant, all in the space of less than two bars. And then there is the counter-subject . . .

Being uncertain - if not highly sceptical - of the existence of the technical word "fuguistical", we did a quick search on Google. But, to our amazement, although it had never heard of it it asked us "Do you mean logistical?". We were perfectly confident, knowing the exactitude of Mr Grew (intermixed with his poetic flair) that he was here inventing a perfectly sound word that, although new to us, communicated the sense of logical perfection that we normally (and habitually) associate automatically with the Fugues of Bach. This observation was then confirmed by Mr Grew's own technical analysis of the main ingredients that are announced from the outset (and one might have been forgiven, we feel, had one assumed that these were the very words of Tovey, again seamlessly asserting their intellectual logic in an outpouring of wisdom at once both deep and (yet) slithy).

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We mention this because Tovey believes he has caught Bach out with a wrong note! "The autographs are all against reading C# in the bass of bar forty," he tells us; "but it is required by the sense and the parallel with bar eighteen." He is so sure of himself here that he actually ventures to insert a sharp sign in square brackets. Well it is true that bars forty and forty-one look very like a transposition of bars eighteen and nineteen; on the other hand if we compare bar two (F-natural D C-sharp D) with bar forty (F-sharp D C-natural D) it may be thought that Bach after pulling the top note of the figure a semi-tone higher was compensating by pulling the bottom note a semi-tone lower. After all, we have seen that, like Schoenberg, Bach already felt free to use in his music any note of the chromatic scale.

But we are far less convinced by Tovey's own real thoughts upon the existence (within the recension) of the C-natural he (very wisely, if again rather slithily) rejects. "Put a full sharp in front of it" we cry! Only a complete fool, we feel, could possibly contemplate the phrase in question without that C# (whether or not any pundit whatsoever might mount even the slightest or the greatest slithy argument against it!).

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Performances Members may wish to contrast here are first that of Hans, a virile German, next that of an Englishman of the present-day, and finally that of Gustav, a very fluent Dutchman.

Hans and Gustav seem fine to us, although we prefer the musical poetry of Gustav as opposed to the Teutonic heaviness of Hans. But what of the mystery "Englishman of the present day" we wonder? Well we have to say that we do not care much for him! Only an Englishman for sure could possibly be so infatuated with the jangling sound of those bells (and we recall this long tradition among Englishmen, starting with Purcell and his infamous "Bell" anthem, stretching right through to Britten and his setting of Owen's "What passing bells", and even culminating with the Belles of St. Trinians!). Only a true crackpot - in every conceivable sense of the word - could possibly make the double mistake of a) using bells at all, and then b) playing trills and other silly ornaments upon them. Which part of the ether, we wonder, preserved this barbarism?

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Actually we share Mr. Baziron's admiration for Gustav, but in our case it is because of the authenticity of the singers in his renditions of the Cantatas. Gustav like Bach will have no truck with the female voice!


...and we do not suppose Mr Grew would either.

Baz
« Last Edit: 19:28:53, 16-07-2008 by Baz » Logged
Baz
Guest
« Reply #467 on: 09:29:36, 17-07-2008 »

Since we have to be away from this morning until late on Sunday night, we are a little concerned about all the crackpottery that may be going on here in the meantime, and that may remain "unchecked"! We shall try to "pop in" (technology permitting) from time to time, but cannot by any means guarantee it!

Baz
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Sydney Grew
Guest
« Reply #468 on: 10:21:44, 17-07-2008 »

It is a little-known fact that Bach gave a subtitle to this D major Prelude from his second Book; he called it "The Demented Trumpeter." To-day for the first time Members may hear the piece performed as the composer conceived it. (Rapid-share / send-space) Incidentally the dotted notes here are all played as printed.

As comparison we turn once again to Wanda in a fine performance.

We are all familiar are not we with that particularly British legion of philosophers who pass through life in a permanent state of puzzlement. Well to-day - for a moment at least - we find ourselves joining them. How many more "wrong notes" that is to say are yet we wonder to be discovered in Bach's autographs?
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Baz
Guest
« Reply #469 on: 17:13:10, 17-07-2008 »

It is a little-known fact that Bach gave a subtitle to this D major Prelude from his second Book; he called it "The Demented Trumpeter." To-day for the first time Members may hear the piece performed as the composer conceived it. (Rapid-share / send-space) Incidentally the dotted notes here are all played as printed.



Noli me tangere!

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As comparison we turn once again to Wanda in a fine performance.


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We are all familiar are not we with that particularly British legion of philosophers who pass through life in a permanent state of puzzlement. Well to-day - for a moment at least - we find ourselves joining them. How many more "wrong notes" that is to say are yet we wonder to be discovered in Bach's autographs?


Baz
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Sydney Grew
Guest
« Reply #470 on: 11:00:01, 18-07-2008 »

The name Bach originally gave to this work was "Beethoven's Fifth Symphony," but after making a few adjustments to the rhythm he changed his mind and called it "Fugue in D Major" instead. It has appeared once already in this thread, in connection with Mozart's arrangement of it for string quartet (message 140), and that there attracted in reply a masterly performance by a Member of this group; but because of its beauty - it is one of the best in the series - we repeat it here in its proper place and hope all Members who "take the plunge" again will enjoy it. (Rapid-share or send-space.) We half expect the lady Members - and even some gentlemen - to swoon at the loveliness of it all.

Riemann - as well as confirming the Beethoven connection - calls this Fugue "pithy, and full of quiet determination." The opening is interesting because quite some time elapses before we realize we are in D major does it not. What Tovey calls the "startling stretto" in bars twenty-seven and twenty-eight is very much in the style of the mature Schönberg - his fourth quartet for example. Tovey also draws our attention to the fact that a certain "smooth figure" is repeated at least one hundred and three times and possibly even one hundred and thirteen times in the course of these two pages of music. And - staying with Tovey - he has taught us a new word! It is "stentato," useful in "big climaxes" he says.

Let us as comparison offer Samuel another hearing. We suspect he might do well with this work full of grandeur beauty and subtlety. . . . Well! He is certainly interesting, but is not the speed rather too variable, and what can that strange slight sound really be which we hear half-way through?
« Last Edit: 10:35:47, 19-07-2008 by Sydney Grew » Logged
Baz
Guest
« Reply #471 on: 11:30:51, 18-07-2008 »

The name Bach originally gave to this work was "Beethoven's Fifth Symphony," but after making a few adjustments to the rhythm he changed his mind and called it "Fugue in D Major" instead. It has appeared once already in this thread, in connection with Mozart's arrangement of it for string quartet (message 140), and that there attracted in reply a masterly performance by a Member of this group; but because of its beauty - it is one of the best in the series - we repeat it here in its proper place and hope all Members who "take the plunge" again will enjoy it. (Rapid-share or send-space.) We half expect the lady Members - and even some gentlemen - to swoon at the loveliness of it all.



ALLA BREVE PLEASE!

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Let us as comparison offer Samuel another hearing. We suspect he might do well with this work full of grandeur beauty and subtlety. . . . Well! He is certainly interesting, but is not the speed rather too variable, and what can that strange slight sound really be which we hear half-way through?

He seems to be unaware that Bach changed the name from "Beethoven..." to "Fugue in D" - but it may also be the case that he read too much into Riemann (who thought it "pithy") and Tovey (whose adjective "startling" in describing the stretti slithed him into playing them so that we jumped out of our chairs in absolute amazement that any such construction should ever be found in something as arcane as a "Bach Fugue").

"Bring back Gustav" we cry!

Baz
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Sydney Grew
Guest
« Reply #472 on: 10:32:59, 19-07-2008 »

To-day's piece is may we say an example of "Bach round the bend": the Prelude in D minor from "Book II" - as Tovey does not tell us the title-page of this collection has long been lost so it may have borne an appellation entirely other and not have been intended to be "Well-Tempered" at all (rapid-share / send-space).

At first we wished to present for comparison Glenn's rendition, imagining he would be as speedy as we have heard him be elsewhere; but we were disappointed! He was considerably slower and sedater, yet his demi-semi-quavers remain indistinct. Wanda was a little faster than Glenn, but we did not achieve full satisfaction until we considered Samuel's performance. Although his demi-semi-quavers too are weak and there are masses of rubato he takes exactly the same time as our anonymous crackpot! It is most interesting though the way he picks out little tunes of his own here and there by emphasizing quite unexpected notes; the best example of this is near the end. Really one could find any melody at all in Bach by bringing out the notes one wanted to hear and playing the others very softly if at all. Does that not remind us of silly old Schönberg's plan of first constructing his melody and of then throwing the notes left over out of his "row" any old way into an "accompaniment"?

Let us finally remind Members of a further interpretation heard here in this thread just the other day; it contains excellent if slowish demi-semi-quavers and was evidently done by a member of the Salvation Army inspired to use the rattling of almost-full money-tins as a musique-concrète "backing."
« Last Edit: 10:45:04, 19-07-2008 by Sydney Grew » Logged
Baz
Guest
« Reply #473 on: 15:23:12, 19-07-2008 »

To-day's piece is may we say an example of "Bach round the bend": the Prelude in D minor from "Book II" - as Tovey does not tell us the title-page of this collection has long been lost so it may have borne an appellation entirely other and not have been intended to be "Well-Tempered" at all (rapid-share / send-space).

This observation is, we consider, a little on the "crackpot" side (if the Member will forgive our saying so). It seems to us a little difficult to perform in a meaningful way ANY of the pieces bearing more than 3 sharps or flats in the key signature unless the instrument has been tuned "well" enough in the first place. (Perhaps, however, the Member considers the lack of a title page to be sufficient grounds in itself for an executant to be allowed to keep his audience waiting while he re-tunes the instrument before playing each and every movement?)

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At first we wished to present for comparison Glenn's rendition, imagining he would be as speedy as we have heard him be elsewhere; but we were disappointed! He was considerably slower and sedater, yet his demi-semi-quavers remain indistinct. Wanda was a little faster than Glenn, but we did not achieve full satisfaction until we considered Samuel's performance. Although his demi-semi-quavers too are weak and there are masses of rubato he takes exactly the same time as our anonymous crackpot! It is most interesting though the way he picks out little tunes of his own here and there by emphasizing quite unexpected notes; the best example of this is near the end. Really one could find any melody at all in Bach by bringing out the notes one wanted to hear and playing the others very softly if at all. Does that not remind us of silly old Schönberg's plan of first constructing his melody and of then throwing the notes left over out of his "row" any old way into an "accompaniment"?

But - Schönberg aside - only those who play this music on definitively inappropriate instruments (such as, say, a Pianoforte) are able, we feel, to perpetrate such nonsense! We have often tried such an experiment upon the harpsichord, the spinet, the clavichord, and the organ, but all to no avail! The notes all seem (for obvious reason) to remain at a constant volume. Since they must have done also for Bach, we feel that had he wanted or needed certain notes to be "brought out" in this way he might have adopted a different method of composition (but he did not).

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Let us finally remind Members of a further interpretation heard here in this thread just the other day; it contains excellent if slowish demi-semi-quavers and was evidently done by a member of the Salvation Army inspired to use the rattling of almost-full money-tins as a musique-concrète "backing."

Those demisemiquavers (or, should we perhaps say "demi-semi-quavers"?) do not seem unduly slow to us. On the other hand, the tempi adopted by the Crackpot and by Samuel seem to us unnecessarily brisk to a lunatic degree. We are unable to understand any reason why the semiquavers (="semi-quavers") in this movement have the slightest need to progress at a more brisk tempo than those to be found in (say) the C Minor Fugue of Book 1. (If the Member knows of a valid reason why they should, perhaps he can inform us so that we can give the matter some serious thought.)

We prefer to savour every semi-quaver.



Baz
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Sydney Grew
Guest
« Reply #474 on: 16:22:11, 19-07-2008 »

If the Member knows of a valid reason why they should, perhaps he can inform us so that we can give the matter some serious thought.

For sheer verve joie-de-vivre and virtuosity. (Remember these works are for the use and edification of youthful students.) Because it is possible. And as training for all those runs in the keyboard concerti. . . .

« Last Edit: 16:29:29, 19-07-2008 by Sydney Grew » Logged
Baz
Guest
« Reply #475 on: 17:06:16, 19-07-2008 »

If the Member knows of a valid reason why they should, perhaps he can inform us so that we can give the matter some serious thought.

For sheer verve joie-de-vivre and virtuosity. (Remember these works are for the use and edification of youthful students.) Because it is possible. And as training for all those runs in the keyboard concerti. . . .


That reasoning seems to us even more slithy than that of The Tove!

Baz
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Sydney Grew
Guest
« Reply #476 on: 18:47:36, 19-07-2008 »

For sheer verve joie-de-vivre and virtuosity. (Remember these works are for the use and edification of youthful students.) Because it is possible. And as training for all those runs in the keyboard concerti. . . .

That reasoning seems to us even more slithy than that of The Tove!

The Member questions the need for speed. Well there is no need to take it from us, or even from Donald ("the flow is torrential"); take it from Vit - from Vit Roubicek renowned the world over for the quality of his liner notes!

"If one divides the preludes of this collection's first set schematically into harmonic and contrapuntal, then the original, introductory function will turn out to be proper to compositions centred around harmonic resolution of the kind familiar from the popular C major prelude, as well as from those in C minor, D major, D minor, F sharp major, G major, and B flat major. These numbers attest to Bach's didactic intention: namely, after the Inventions to carry on, up to the highest degrees of virtuosity, with the element of technique being assigned a truly substantial part here."

Our emphasis. All this holds also for the D minor prelude of the second set does not it.

. . . And we venture after all to add a little more from Tovey: "These demi-semi-quavers are no more melodic than the arpeggios they fill out. They constitute a brilliant instrumental effect producible on the piano-forte, as on the clavichord and harpsichord, by fingers lifted high and sharply withdrawn; an action possible in the most rapid tempo, so that here these demi-semi-quavers are no warning signal against break-neck speed."
« Last Edit: 10:00:22, 20-07-2008 by Sydney Grew » Logged
Sydney Grew
Guest
« Reply #477 on: 09:27:41, 20-07-2008 »

It is the turn to-day of the Fugue in D minor from Bach's second set. We say "D minor" but in fact this time he does his best to destroy all sense of key. The work (given here - rapid-share and send-space - in a crotchety and wildly inappropriate interpretation) begins with a confused flurry, something in the style of Beethoven actually, and it continues with a long slide downwards over six notes of the chromatic scale. We know from past experience do not we that any point at which Bach uses a descending chromatic line is certain to reward our close attention. Well! it is of course not long before we hear him sliding back upwards, and the entire work is constructed upon combinations and alternations of flurries and slides, with the occasional cadence thrown in simply for seemliness' sake. Of course Bach who was so fond of elaborate cadences puts those six sliding notes to very good and original use in the penultimate bar. And Tovey in a striking phrase draws our attention to the work's "indolently swinging quavers."

We are in a position to offer two further renditions; the first is from the English gentleman of the other day, and the parts are brought out admirably clearly! But if we may say so it remains a little raspy because of its having been compressed to 128 Kilo-"bits" per second, and we presume to advise the use of 196 thereof in any future essay.

The second must be from a harpsichordist; and as Members may by now have had their fill of Wanda and Gustav has attracted a certain approbation in some quarters how about him? His performance is indeed both fluent and accomplished, very like, we imagine, that of the composer himself. But why then we ask is it considerably speedier than that of his English admirer?
« Last Edit: 09:35:09, 20-07-2008 by Sydney Grew » Logged
Baz
Guest
« Reply #478 on: 17:37:06, 20-07-2008 »

For sheer verve joie-de-vivre and virtuosity. (Remember these works are for the use and edification of youthful students.) Because it is possible. And as training for all those runs in the keyboard concerti. . . .

That reasoning seems to us even more slithy than that of The Tove!

The Member questions the need for speed. Well there is no need to take it from us, or even from Donald ("the flow is torrential"); take it from Vit - from Vit Roubicek renowned the world over for the quality of his liner notes!

"If one divides the preludes of this collection's first set schematically into harmonic and contrapuntal, then the original, introductory function will turn out to be proper to compositions centred around harmonic resolution of the kind familiar from the popular C major prelude, as well as from those in C minor, D major, D minor, F sharp major, G major, and B flat major. These numbers attest to Bach's didactic intention: namely, after the Inventions to carry on, up to the highest degrees of virtuosity, with the element of technique being assigned a truly substantial part here."

Our emphasis. All this holds also for the D minor prelude of the second set does not it.

Who knows whether or not it does? Indeed, who knows whether Mr Roubicek knows - what he says above seems to me like a classic case of slithiness. What does any of it mean we wonder? Since all the pieces combine the harmonic with the contrapuntal, where does one draw the dividing line? And anyway this tells us nothing whatsoever about TEMPO. If some pieces reach "the highest degree of virtuosity" then that we think is a quality embedded within the music, and not merely something a performer conveys from an otherwise placid notation.

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. . . And we venture after all to add a little more from Tovey: "These demi-semi-quavers are no more melodic than the arpeggios they fill out. They constitute a brilliant instrumental effect producible on the piano-forte, as on the clavichord and harpsichord, by fingers lifted high and sharply withdrawn; an action possible in the most rapid tempo, so that here these demi-semi-quavers are no warning signal against break-neck speed."

Why should the element of "break-neck" coexist with the concept of "Bach" at all, we ask ourselves. If Bach took risks they were, we believe, carefully-calculated ones in which nothing was left to "chance".

Never mind the demisemiquavers, we still prefer to savour all the semiquavers.

Baz

P.S. The name "Roubicek" is not one that we have often encountered in our journey through Bach scholarship. "Does he really exist?" we cry! If he does then why can we not find him amongst the "experts"?
« Last Edit: 09:28:30, 21-07-2008 by Baz » Logged
Baz
Guest
« Reply #479 on: 17:46:20, 20-07-2008 »

It is the turn to-day of the Fugue in D minor from Bach's second set. We say "D minor" but in fact this time he does his best to destroy all sense of key. The work (given here - rapid-share and send-space - in a crotchety and wildly inappropriate interpretation) begins with a confused flurry, something in the style of Beethoven actually, and it continues with a long slide downwards over six notes of the chromatic scale. We know from past experience do not we that any point at which Bach uses a descending chromatic line is certain to reward our close attention. Well! it is of course not long before we hear him sliding back upwards, and the entire work is constructed upon combinations and alternations of flurries and slides, with the occasional cadence thrown in simply for seemliness' sake. Of course Bach who was so fond of elaborate cadences puts those six sliding notes to very good and original use in the penultimate bar. And Tovey in a striking phrase draws our attention to the work's "indolently swinging quavers."

We are in a position to offer two further renditions; the first is from the English gentleman of the other day, and the parts are brought out admirably clearly! But if we may say so it remains a little raspy because of its having been compressed to 128 Kilo-"bits" per second, and we presume to advise the use of 196 thereof in any future essay.

The second must be from a harpsichordist; and as Members may by now have had their fill of Wanda and Gustav has attracted a certain approbation in some quarters how about him? His performance is indeed both fluent and accomplished, very like, we imagine, that of the composer himself. But why then we ask is it considerably speedier than that of his English admirer?


We do not consider Gustav's speed to be that much greater than our own! A bit yes, but a lot no! In truth, when we were impish (and crackpot) enough to convert the said fugue into a Concerto Movement (with continuo), we immediately realised that the harmony changes at the level of the quaver rather than the crotchet. Having initially added a new bass line for the first statement of the theme, we realised at once Bach's true intentions - the movement must flow at a slightly slower pace than even Gustav provides. This is concealed from the listener when only a single line is announced (as in the original), and performers (in our view incorrectly) infer that the harmonic pace is at the level of the crotchet. The transcription shows otherwise we believe.

Please note this Gustav!

Baz

P.S. We are again most grateful to the expert Mr Grew for having found a way of reformatting the ether so as to recover the said missing fugue from it - we had supposed it had long ago evaporated somewhere into the outer regions of inner space to be lost for ever!

Keep it up Mr Grew - you are a champion!
« Last Edit: 09:29:42, 21-07-2008 by Baz » Logged
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