richard barrett
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« Reply #45 on: 16:01:05, 10-06-2008 » |
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If you think I'm going to click on that link you're very wrong.
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strinasacchi
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« Reply #46 on: 17:43:12, 10-06-2008 » |
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Oh my god. Did they ever sing "Come away fellow Zaylerrrrs?"
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #47 on: 18:29:32, 10-06-2008 » |
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[Oh my god.
Did they ever sing "Come away fellow Zaylerrrrs?"
And there you were thinking Britain was a centre of high art, eh? No, but they 'ad a very good song about a combine 'arvester which would go just luvverly in any o' them pastorales. Oi can just see Acis & Galatea with one o' them... with a new storyline about moi sister an' 'er friend in the teashoppe. It's called A SIS & GAL O' TEA, ARR!
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House" - Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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richard barrett
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« Reply #48 on: 18:34:36, 10-06-2008 » |
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any o' them pastorales. Oi prefers a noice tasty Cornish pastorale meself.
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #49 on: 18:43:59, 10-06-2008 » |
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Oi prefers a noice tasty Cornish pastorale meself.
Baked by the composer 'isself, they are - after he were a runaway from the Eton Chapel* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Cornysh* see above
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House" - Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #50 on: 10:09:42, 11-06-2008 » |
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I have spent the last three days in Devon and I have not ANYONE talk like that. A slight attractive burr, maybe, but really...
Widecombe Fair is the only thing I can do in broad Devon, and even that is probably an accent picked up from the West Country wireless.
On the other hand, sailors are hardlly likely to sound like a bunch of vicars choral, are they?
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« Last Edit: 13:17:23, 12-06-2008 by Don Basilio »
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven. A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
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strinasacchi
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« Reply #51 on: 10:39:06, 11-06-2008 » |
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I have spent the last three days in Devon and I have not ANYONE talk like that. A slight attractive burr, maybe, but really...
[...]
On the other hand, sailors are hardlly likely to sound like a bunck of vicars choral, are they?
No, but neither are they likely to sing in rhyming anapestic stanzas, even irregular ones. How much "realism" should a performer inject? And is a ridiculously overbaked accent "realism"? And why particularly West Country - as David Underdown pointed out, London and Southampton were major ports in the 17th century as well as points further west. Is it only in the 20th century that people started to conflate sailors/pirates/wurzels into one generic ridiculous accent? Some see the sailor's song as a moment of comedy that leavens the weighty tragedy of the piece. I'm not so sure - yes it's jaunty, but it also reveals another point of view on leaving one's "nymphs" behind. Perhaps the sailors are simply more honest than Aeneas. (Hasn't he known all along that his fate will lie elsewhere?) But laying on a thick comedy accent makes it hard to take the sailor's moment at all seriously.
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martle
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« Reply #52 on: 10:54:16, 11-06-2008 » |
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Is it only in the 20th century that people started to conflate sailors/pirates/wurzels into one generic ridiculous accent?
Fair point about sailors (although the Southampton accent is a horribly mixed up one of Hampshire burr, very close to ersatz west country, mingled with urban clippings). But pirates did tend to come from the west country I think - the major smuggling industries were mostly situated along the westernmost coasts, for obvious reasons.
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Green. Always green.
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #53 on: 10:54:58, 11-06-2008 » |
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(Hasn't he known all along that his fate will lie elsewhere?)
In Virgil's original he's under the power of Venus at this point, which obviously isn't replicated in the version that Purcell is setting, but I think that it is realistic to note that under the power of strong emotion, infatuation, love we tend to be very good at convincing ourselves that what we're doing is for the best. And anyway, as far as Aeneas is concerned all he's doing is finding a new home for the Trojan people. I can't remember if his destination is specified in any of the accounts that I can recall (except, of course, for Berlioz's 'Italy! Italy!'). Carthage would be just as good as Etrusca, and he would be joining with an established ruler etc. etc.
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'is this all we can do?' anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965) http://www.myspace.com/itensemble
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #54 on: 11:11:38, 11-06-2008 » |
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Properly should belong to the Pedantry Thread, but shouldn't that be Etruria, hh, even though Etruscan is the adjective?
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richard barrett
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« Reply #55 on: 11:25:17, 11-06-2008 » |
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Properly should belong to the Pedantry Thread, but shouldn't that be Etruria, hh, even though Etruscan is the adjective?
In my time a grounding in the classics and regular flogging were the pillars of a sound education.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #56 on: 11:27:18, 11-06-2008 » |
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In my time a grounding in the classics and regular flogging were the pillars of a sound education.
The latter arguably has more intrinsic merit than the former, as long as one remembers that it's always better to give than to receive.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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strinasacchi
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« Reply #57 on: 11:34:22, 11-06-2008 » |
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(Hasn't he known all along that his fate will lie elsewhere?)
In Virgil's original he's under the power of Venus at this point, which obviously isn't replicated in the version that Purcell is setting, but I think that it is realistic to note that under the power of strong emotion, infatuation, love we tend to be very good at convincing ourselves that what we're doing is for the best. And anyway, as far as Aeneas is concerned all he's doing is finding a new home for the Trojan people. I can't remember if his destination is specified in any of the accounts that I can recall (except, of course, for Berlioz's 'Italy! Italy!'). Carthage would be just as good as Etrusca, and he would be joining with an established ruler etc. etc. I suppose by "honest" I mean that Aeneas wasn't being honest with himself (easily done when in the tangles of love and passion). As for knowing it's all doomed, very early in the piece Dido tells him "Fate forbids what you pursue", and he responds "Aeneas has no fate but you! Let Dido smile, and I'll defy the feeble stroke of Destiny." But of course he doesn't. Back to accents - I had nearly buried the memory, but I've done one performance of this where the witches sang in a horrible witchy cackle. Talk about embarrassing. They all but shrieked "I'll get you my pretty! and your little dog empire too!"
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #58 on: 11:35:28, 11-06-2008 » |
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Properly should belong to the Pedantry Thread, but shouldn't that be Etruria, hh, even though Etruscan is the adjective?
Oh yes. I think I knew that once. Etrusca didn't look right but I didn't have the time for a more thorough check. White pigs and all that? In my time a grounding in the classics and regular flogging were the pillars of a sound education.
My Latin teacher would be ashamed, though flogging was not a part of my education. Hobnobs and hysterical laughter though... If you've never attempted to translate Book IV of the Aeneid while giggling through biscuity tea, spraying oats all over the place you haven't lived.
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'is this all we can do?' anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965) http://www.myspace.com/itensemble
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richard barrett
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« Reply #59 on: 11:48:06, 11-06-2008 » |
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I have spent the last three days in Devon and I have not ANYONE talk like that. A slight attractive burr, maybe, but really...
[...]
On the other hand, sailors are hardlly likely to sound like a bunck of vicars choral, are they?
No, but neither are they likely to sing in rhyming anapestic stanzas, even irregular ones. How much "realism" should a performer inject? And is a ridiculously overbaked accent "realism"? And why particularly West Country - as David Underdown pointed out, London and Southampton were major ports in the 17th century as well as points further west. Is it only in the 20th century that people started to conflate sailors/pirates/wurzels into one generic ridiculous accent? Some see the sailor's song as a moment of comedy that leavens the weighty tragedy of the piece. I'm not so sure - yes it's jaunty, but it also reveals another point of view on leaving one's "nymphs" behind. Perhaps the sailors are simply more honest than Aeneas. (Hasn't he known all along that his fate will lie elsewhere?) But laying on a thick comedy accent makes it hard to take the sailor's moment at all seriously. This is a vexed question for me in any English music of that period. I can believe that some kind of indication of rustic accent might have featured in 17th century performances, but, as has been pointed out, what it would have contrasted with would have been something quite different from mid-20th-century RP (which nobody speaks any more anyway, so Purcell is generally performed with a "historical" accent but the wrong one). I'd be in favour of trying to recreate something like "authentic" pronunciation(s). The work that's been done in this direction for earlier English music, after a faltering start, has become quite convincing and natural-sounding in the meantime. I don't know whether Dido has been done in this way.
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