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Author Topic: String Quartets - the ultimate in serious music  (Read 1231 times)
Ron Dough
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« Reply #45 on: 11:13:48, 24-09-2008 »

And is a Piano Trio more rewarding for its players than an audience?
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #46 on: 11:19:31, 24-09-2008 »

But I do think it's misleading to say he 'achieved it on his own.' The idea of adding a viola to the two violins and bass configuration popular in the dance halls of the day seems something less than unprecedented.

I do find it interesting that, while the combination is ubiquitous today, its exact formulation seems to have been fixed by Haydn's use of it, which seems to have been determined (or at least Pauly suggests so) by the fact that those were the musicians with whom Haydn was working at the time.

Is a string trio more or less serious than a quartet?
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thompson1780
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« Reply #47 on: 11:20:56, 24-09-2008 »

And is a Piano Trio more rewarding for its players than an audience?

I suppose that depends on the players and upon the audience.

As it is, I find playing in a trio much harder than playing in a quartet.  Balancing the voices when they have such different characteristics is very hard, wheras in an all string ensemble you can (relatively) easily achieve the same shape to each sound.

But then again, I think that may be why Piano Trios may give String Quartets a run for their money.  String Quartets have 'just' a stringy sound, whereas Piano Trios can go beyond this.

I'm not sure about other chamber combinations.  Wind groups somehow don't have the intimacy of SQs or PTs, but I am sure some members will provide counter examples to correct me.  Mixed groups can work well, but they aren't exactly widespread.....

Tommo
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« Reply #48 on: 11:30:23, 24-09-2008 »

A good composer does not 'fiddle with colours': he/she uses instrumentation to express the musical thought with the utmost clarity. Rimsky-Korsakov insisted that there is no such thing as a well-orchestrated piece, only a well-written piece.

We do not think Johann Sebastian Bach would have agreed with that view, and he was a far greater composer than Rimmsci-Corsaceff. Bach permitted his incomparable music to be played by all sorts of ensembles. The only instrument whose particular timbre he seems to have enjoyed for its own sake was the oboe da caccia.


Good Heavens! Are you suggesting that the greatest organist of his day had a scant appreciation of tone-colour? (Sorry folks, I know this is OT for this thread).
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richard barrett
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« Reply #49 on: 11:33:16, 24-09-2008 »

JS Bach was as we all know a master of instrumental colour as well as of everything else he turned his attention to, a fact from which none of his arrangements/reconceptions between media can detract, and which is particularly in evidence in the careful and often unusual choice of instrumentation in such works as the "Brandenburg" Concertos, the cantatas and the larger-scale works for the church. Most of the Kunst der Fuge on the other hand can be played very successfully as string quartet music, and I prefer to hear it that way than on a keyboard instrument.

All other things being equal (which they never are), I prefer the sound of a string quartet to that of a piano trio. Neither has the latter really had its Arditti or Kronos to bring its repertoire up to date, which is a shame.

"Mixed" chamber music groups are much more widespread now than they were a hundred years ago, with the Pierrot lunaire combination (piano trio plus flute and clarinet) probably generating more repertoire than the wind quintet these days, and the "Sinfonietta" (five woodwinds, four brass, percussion, piano and string quintet) even more than this.
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #50 on: 11:33:57, 24-09-2008 »

There might be an interesting difference here between performers and composers.
As a composer, I find the idea of writing a string quartet to be more intense mainly because of the homogeneity of the sound.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #51 on: 11:42:07, 24-09-2008 »

There might be an interesting difference here between performers and composers.
As a composer, I find the idea of writing a string quartet to be more intense mainly because of the homogeneity of the sound.

... although I would see that "homogeneity" more as a bug than as a feature, ie. something which might require creative workarounds in order that the music not be enslaved to the traditional characteristics of its instrumentation. And this isn't the only problem: the layout of the quartet implies harmonic voicings inherited from tonal music (smaller intervals at the top, wide spacing between "tenor" and "bass").
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Bryn
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« Reply #52 on: 11:42:41, 24-09-2008 »

Moderators, can you please remove all messages referring to Baah'hhh from this thread. The composer concerned did not write any string quartets. Wink
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Bryn
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« Reply #53 on: 11:50:14, 24-09-2008 »

Richard, was it not Pierre Boulez who exposed timbre as a 20th century invention? Was it perhaps in 1908 it first raised it's ugly head Wink
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #54 on: 13:22:17, 24-09-2008 »

I remember his Boris Tchaikovsky's name from my previous life elsewhere. I don't remember what kind of music it is.
Schostakovich admired him, so it is safe to say his music must be good.

Boris Tchaikovsky 1925 - 1996

Well we are sorry to say we do not think much of the first of Boris's six quartets. It is written in the faux-naïf Russian "wrong note" manner, which originated in Paris with Pracofieff did not it. We detest that manner almost as much as we detest the manner of the northern American mesmerist school. Poor old Rachmannineff a true Russian gentleman composer must have been turning in his grave for many years, to say nothing of Scryabine. Boris had only the simplest conception of harmony it seems on the evidence of this quartet at least. We shall listen to his sixth next - of which we have after all read good reports - to see whether he made much progress between 1958 (his first) and 1976 (the sixth).

What constitutes good string quartet writing then? Scryabine wrote nothing for the medium, and Rachmannineff only early scraps. But Chausson's - completed by D'Indy - springs to mind as one of the very best. Its great virtues are that it is dense, and full of elevenths.
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Baz
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« Reply #55 on: 13:51:44, 24-09-2008 »


Well we are sorry to say we do not think much of the first of Boris's six quartets.


Who could?

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thompson1780
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« Reply #56 on: 14:47:47, 24-09-2008 »

As this is turning into a good discussion about String Quartets, and not about their relative merits in comparison to other ensembles, please reply here if you want to compare String Quartets with other ensembles.

As you were

Tommo
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« Reply #57 on: 16:39:12, 24-09-2008 »

Rachmaninoff knew what Stravinsky and other were writing. He did not feel that he can write this kind of music. He remained true to himself.

It is not easy to be true to yourself, I suppose.

I love piano trios. Some times I love them more than quartet. I get tired of string sound. Piano brings new colour.

I wish composers will not forget piano trios. Please.

I don't know Boris Tchaikovsky quartets. Of course every one has his own taste, but I love Prokofiev's music. I love him as much as I love Stravinsky. For piano Prokofiev wrote very good music. I don't think I would want to be without this repertoire.
« Last Edit: 16:42:07, 24-09-2008 by trained-pianist » Logged
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« Reply #58 on: 19:42:17, 24-09-2008 »

Is a string trio more or less serious than a quartet?
Well, for some people it is, for some not.

BFerneyhough only wrote one string trio. He did not call it 'First String Trio' even tho there might have been occasion to do so. LvBeethoven wrote some fairly conventional string trios, while Mozart and Schubert wrote quite substantial ones. It's a complex question with very vague goalposts.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #59 on: 19:53:10, 24-09-2008 »

"Sinfonietta" (five woodwinds, four brass, percussion, piano and string quintet)
Four woodwinds, three brass, surely? I'm off-topic (but the rest of this post isn't!).

I was about to mention Ferneyhough apropos string trios before TF did. Ferneyhough's programme note, as I recall from hearing an early performance of that piece at the ISCM in Manchester in 1998 (can it really be so long ago?!), drew attention rather interestingly to the fact that, having fewer definite generic associations developed in the Classical period and its aftermath than does the string quartet, the string trio could be regarded as a sort of hybrid genre with elements of the viol consort and of various other histories informing it. This would have been in the period when he was very preoccupied with baroque-type structures (cf. trio sonatas) with pairs of movements slow-fast, as in Kurze Schatten II etc., although IIRC the Trio is more through-composed or rather cross-cut between types of material.
« Last Edit: 02:55:12, 25-09-2008 by time_is_now » Logged

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