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Author Topic: religion is evil  (Read 9492 times)
increpatio
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« Reply #300 on: 20:37:27, 30-08-2007 »

Here is the link I promised.  There are some things he says that are impossible to disagree with.  There is no doubt that we tend to belong to the religion that goes with our own particular culture - by sheer accident of birth.  Personally I don't think that matters.  I've never thought there is only "one path".  There are obviously many but we're all heading in the same direction after all.

I don't understand what you mean by that last sentence.

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I don't think for one minute that there is only one "right" way, although I concede that others do.

Actually, here's something I'd be interested in knowing: are there many religious moderates in the uk actively trying to combat literalist and fundamentalist religious beliefs?  (I assume there are; I would be interested in reading what they might have to say)

Also, are there many actively promoting secularism?  For all this talk of the importance of an inclusive, pluralist society, I am inclined to believe that the main people pushing secularism at the moment are atheists/agnostic (though if this is true, that probably tells us little.  But I would be interested to know).

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The point of this link though was with regard to your remark about Dawkins showing respect for religious leaders or religious people.  At some point in this link he implies - well actually he says that people who are atheists are more intelligent. 

Now, I'm not a fan of IQ-based arguments: what he says is that there was a meta-analysis done that correlated education and IQ to Atheistism.  I would be willing to go with the Education-based argument however.  I would think that the more education that a person has access to, the more informed their beliefs will be.  To say that people who do not have access to a diverse set of ideas and concepts will tend to just use those that are around them is *entirely* reasonable.

Of course a lot of this depends on what sort of education people have access to (for instance, the education system in Saudi Arabi, is, from what I have heard, entirely islamocentric).

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So basically he thinks that religious people are thick.  Not very respectful.

I do not think that "respect" in the sense I am understanding it as used here is something that needs to be given any amount of lip service.  I also, as I've said above, think that the inference above is a rather personal one, and I don't see it at all (though, once again, I have a strong distaste for IQ-based arguments about anything).
« Last Edit: 20:42:40, 30-08-2007 by increpatio » Logged

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Milly Jones
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« Reply #301 on: 21:11:46, 30-08-2007 »

There are obviously many but we're all heading in the same direction after all.

I don't understand what you mean by that last sentence.

I mean we're all going to die.

So basically although there are many paths or roads to take in life whether "spiritual" or not, we'll all find out the truth one way or the other after we're dead.  There will either be something else or there won't.  If there isn't, we won't care anyway because we'll be dead as doornails.
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increpatio
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« Reply #302 on: 21:40:04, 30-08-2007 »

There are obviously many but we're all heading in the same direction after all.

I don't understand what you mean by that last sentence.

I mean we're all going to die.

So basically although there are many paths or roads to take in life whether "spiritual" or not, we'll all find out the truth one way or the other after we're dead.  There will either be something else or there won't.
Maybe not the best wording Wink  But ok; what you said makes sense now!

I personally think the idea is rather contrived, given how tightly tied up human thought and consciousness is provably tied up with the human physiology.

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If there isn't, we won't care anyway because we'll be dead as doornails.

Of course, that's not a reason to combat such beliefs insofar as they might be tied up with matters of the real world.

I am personally fascinated (though not actively enough to have anything like a panoramic view of the subject) by various descriptions people have of the afterlife; I think the most inventive I've come across recently was by Swedenborg; he had a vision of hell hell, the people there were torturing one another, lying and scheming against eachother &c.; but all of this being in their nature, they being irredeemable sinners, they actually assumed that they were in heaven.  It is, in it's own way, a happy picture of the afterlife, neh?
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Milly Jones
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« Reply #303 on: 21:51:40, 30-08-2007 »

Isn't it the Christadelphians who believe that, whatever you believe is going to happen to you after death, is what will actually happen? Well in that event, just in case they're right, I believe I'm going to be in another dimension with lots of arts, culture and science to learn about, with my beloved husband and children, and we're all going to be youthful and in perfect health for ever!  We're going to be surrounded by people we get on with and have lots in common with and we're all going to be happy ever after! (Oh and all the animals I've ever owned will be there with us forever.)  Cheesy

Well it's worth a shot... Wink
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Milly Jones
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« Reply #304 on: 22:00:56, 30-08-2007 »

I've just googled Christadelphians and it isn't them after all.  I seem to remember reading it about some religion or other.

Oh well.  Roll Eyes
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increpatio
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« Reply #305 on: 22:04:47, 30-08-2007 »

Isn't it the Christadelphians who believe that, whatever you believe is going to happen to you after death, is what will actually happen?
That's not quite the same thing as what he was saying (with him there was a definite hell and a definite heaven, but people in hell thought that heaven was the real hell ). 

I think Terry Pratchett has some situation that fits your description in his Discworld Fantasy series.

I've just googled Christadelphians and it isn't them after all.  I seem to remember reading it about some religion or other.

Yeah. Having looked it up on Wikipedia, I find that, according to it:
"They believe that the words devil and satan are references to sin and human nature in opposition to God. These terms may also be used in reference to specific political systems or individuals in opposition or conflict. Hell is understood to refer to death and the grave, rather than being a place of eternal torment.[8]"

Which is something interesting in and of itself I think if it be true.

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Well in that event, just in case they're right, I believe I'm going to be in another dimension with lots of arts, culture and science to learn about, with my beloved husband and children, and we're all going to be youthful and in perfect health for ever!  We're going to be surrounded by people we get on with and have lots in common with and we're all going to be happy ever after! (Oh and all the animals I've ever owned will be there with us forever.)  Cheesy

If only belief was so easy!
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George Garnett
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« Reply #306 on: 23:12:20, 30-08-2007 »

There will either be something else or there won't.  If there isn't, we won't care anyway because we'll be dead as doornails.

It is grossly unfair though that, if there is an afterlife, us non-believers will have to put up with an eternity of the other lot jeering 'I told you so' whereas, if there isn't, we won't have that pleasure. That's definitely not what I call a level playing field. Angry
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Alison
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« Reply #307 on: 23:22:57, 30-08-2007 »

And there was me thinking you were part of the worshipping community at St Albans, Geo.
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Milly Jones
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« Reply #308 on: 23:27:46, 30-08-2007 »

Yes George! And you assured me that you were an Agnostic!  That would mean that you are neither a believer nor an unbeliever.  I'm an Agnostic/want-to-be believer.

Any road oop, if I spot you in the new dimension I shall be the first to shout "nur nur nee nur nur!" 
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Milly Jones
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« Reply #309 on: 23:28:51, 30-08-2007 »

When Richard Dawkins turns up I vote we all line up and blow a big raspberry!
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George Garnett
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« Reply #310 on: 23:32:02, 30-08-2007 »

Um, ah, cough, well Alison, <shuffles feet>, we're talking C of E here. Um, broad church and all that. It's just possible that some of us are there for the earthly sensual pleasures on offer and feel the need to go and "warship" when the choir is doing some particularly hot Byrd or Tallis or something. I'm basically an Evensong man, the service for agnostics Cheesy

Well, Milly, I count myself an enthusiastic agnostic when it comes to the existence of God. I think there are powerful positive reasons for being an agnostic in that sense. But the afterlife, well, um, I can't see any reason for believing in that. Mind you, the fact that an afterlife seems mind-bogglingly unlikely isn't exactly a knock-down argument. The fact that there is life is mind-bogglingly unlikely too Shocked which rather undercuts the value of 'mind-bogglingly unlikely' as a criterion. Cheesy  
« Last Edit: 19:35:11, 01-09-2007 by George Garnett » Logged
richard barrett
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« Reply #311 on: 23:34:13, 30-08-2007 »

you assured me that you were an Agnostic!  That would mean that you are neither a believer nor an unbeliever.
But... you could also say that an unbeliever simply doesn't believe either in the existence or nonexistence of god, and is therefore agnostic, whereas conversely an atheist does believe in the nonexistence of god. Or am I just confusing matters?
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increpatio
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« Reply #312 on: 23:35:38, 30-08-2007 »

Yes George! And you assured me that you were an Agnostic!  That would mean that you are neither a believer nor an unbeliever.

Eh?  You ask an agnostic if they believe there is a god, their answer aught be a qualified "no" really "I don't believe in the existence of god, but I don't think one can know either way", or am I missing something?

edit: richard beat me to it.
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increpatio
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« Reply #313 on: 23:37:46, 30-08-2007 »

There will either be something else or there won't.  If there isn't, we won't care anyway because we'll be dead as doornails.

It is grossly unfair though that, if there is an afterlife, us non-believers will have to put up with an eternity of the other lot jeering 'I told you so' whereas, if there isn't, we won't have that pleasure. That's definitely not what I call a level playing field. Angry

Nonbelievers don't go to heaven though; they go to hell as per official Church policy.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #314 on: 19:29:03, 01-09-2007 »

Changing the subject: I was wondering if anyone knows what the conversion rate is for people called to the front door at 9am in their dressing gowns by the Jehovah's Witnesses. I would imagine it's quite low, probably approaching zero. So what's the point?

I'd particularly like to hear from any JWs who happen to be r3ok members.

Or is this a grumpy old rant?
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