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Author Topic: religion is evil  (Read 9492 times)
Tony Watson
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« Reply #75 on: 13:22:59, 09-07-2007 »

"I know that my redeemer liveth..."

"I believe..." just doesn't have the same impact, does it? (I write as a non-believer.) When people talk about what they believe in, what they're really saying is that they know, and as people have pointed out above, therein lies much of the problem.

It's interesting that Sydney compares religion to mathematics and physics. But the big difference, as Dawkins would point out, is that physicists are only too happy to be proved wrong. But the certainties of mathematics have appealed to those seeking religious enlightenment.
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increpatio
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« Reply #76 on: 13:32:44, 09-07-2007 »

"I know that my redeemer liveth..."

"I believe..." just doesn't have the same impact, does it? (I write as a non-believer.) When people talk about what they believe in, what they're really saying is that they know, and as people have pointed out above, therein lies much of the problem.

The distinction between "I know" and "I believe" isn't in any way straightforward, and open to general confusion.

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It's interesting that Sydney compares religion to mathematics and physics. But the big difference, as Dawkins would point out, is that physicists are only too happy to be proved wrong. But the certainties of mathematics have appealed to those seeking religious enlightenment.

Mathematicians are also, alas, not very happy to be proven wrong, the reason being that a physicist can still say he did good work based on the evidence he had, but people (well, mathematicians!) tend to be rather less forgiving to the mathematician who has staked his reputation (if only in part) on a particular claim.
« Last Edit: 13:37:40, 09-07-2007 by increpatio » Logged

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Don Basilio
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« Reply #77 on: 17:53:12, 09-07-2007 »

I am confused.

This weird idea that a religion is a set of facts.

"I believe" can mean "I am putting my trust in this."  I believe in the value of other human beings, I believe in respect for creation, I believe that I appreciate life as I am suitably penitent for my shortcomings and thankful for life's blessings, I believe the good things of life are a gift.

I cannot prove any of that.

The wisest priest I ever knew always says doubt is not the opposite of faith.  Without doubt there is no faith.

Lots of members on this board describe and justify their enthusiasm for different music and performances.  Isn't that "ramming their ideas down your throat"?
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increpatio
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« Reply #78 on: 18:04:02, 09-07-2007 »

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The wisest priest I ever knew always says doubt is not the opposite of faith.  Without doubt there is no faith.
Here it would depend on one's interpretation of faith, I guess.

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Lots of members on this board describe and justify their enthusiasm for different music and performances.  Isn't that "ramming their ideas down your throat"?

They are not asking you to accept their opinions as fact, so I would say no, and most are given with a tacit acknowledgement of subjectivity (especially when reactions are negative).
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #79 on: 18:10:33, 09-07-2007 »

Lots of members on this board describe and justify their enthusiasm for different music and performances.  Isn't that "ramming their ideas down your throat"?


Not when you choose to read them voluntarily, surely. In most cases people are sharing their enthusiasms rather than imposing them, which seems to be rather more like an invitation to taste from a spoon than being subjected to an œsophagal plunger...
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John W
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« Reply #80 on: 22:38:54, 09-07-2007 »


Lots of members on this board describe and justify their enthusiasm for different music and performances.  Isn't that "ramming their ideas down your throat"?


Isn't that one of  the purposes of this forum?  I want people to ram musical ideas into my head!!
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Kittybriton
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Thank you for the music ...


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« Reply #81 on: 01:46:33, 10-07-2007 »

All right then John. Keep still...
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #82 on: 09:59:26, 10-07-2007 »

So far as I know, and I do know something, the concept of "symmetry", insofar as it is useful in mathematics, does *not* constitute in any sense a mere prop - in practice the usages are entirely mathematical; though there are some who utter various catchphrases, espouse paradigms, support the odd yoga, but we are all very well aware that such things do not constitute real mathematics (however useful/beautiful such formulations might be).

Let us contribute a few words in response to Mr. Patio. We were thinking of symmetry in regard not so much to its use in proofs, as to the part it plays in the construction and invention of new mathematical entities. One very simple example is the way a mirror is held up to the whole numbers and lo! the negative integers are born.

We were thinking also of Dirac the little Bristol man when he said "It is more important to have beauty in one's equations than to have them fit the experiment." Observe there if you will that fundamental driver of us all importance.

Poincaré too tells us that the ęsthetic rather than the logical is the dominant element in mathematical creativity. And Hardy himself wrote "The mathematician's patterns, like the painter's or the poet's, must be beautiful. A mathematician is a master of pattern."

Order, as opposed to chaos, makes life comprehensible. Pattern or symmetry - one type of order - is defined and analyzed in terms of the invariants of transformation groups. Thus a plane figure possesses axial symmetry around the line y = 0 if it is unchanged by the transformation x' = -x; y' = y.

Davis and Hersch - two American professors - give us an amusing description - much too long to reproduce here in its entirety - of what the average mathematician actually does. They point out that in his work he never bothers to define the terms "exist" "rigour" or "completeness." The "objects" which he studies were unknown until thirty years ago, and even now are known to only a few dozen persons. "His writing," they go on, "follows an unbreakable convention: to conceal any sign that the author or the intended reader is a human being. It gives the impression that, from the stated definitions, the desired results follow infallibly by a purely mechanical procedure. To read his proofs, one must be privy to a whole subculture of motivations, standard arguments and examples, habits of thought and agreed-upon modes of reasoning."
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roslynmuse
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« Reply #83 on: 10:19:00, 10-07-2007 »


Davis and Hersch - two American professors - give us an amusing description - much too long to reproduce here in its entirety - of what the average mathematician actually does. They point out that in his work he never bothers to define the terms "exist" "rigour" or "completeness." The "objects" which he studies were unknown until thirty years ago, and even now are known to only a few dozen persons. "His writing," they go on, "follows an unbreakable convention: to conceal any sign that the author or the intended reader is a human being. It gives the impression that, from the stated definitions, the desired results follow infallibly by a purely mechanical procedure. To read his proofs, one must be privy to a whole subculture of motivations, standard arguments and examples, habits of thought and agreed-upon modes of reasoning."


Not unlike the work of certain composers, in fact...
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #84 on: 10:22:28, 10-07-2007 »

rm

 Grin Grin Grin
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George Garnett
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« Reply #85 on: 10:27:08, 10-07-2007 »

We were thinking also of Dirac the little Bristol man

It is always an instructive pleasure to read Mr Grew's postings but we are becoming a little alarmed at the implied size of this particular Member. Professor Dirac, according to his intimates, was a little over six feet tall in his West Country socks and, whilst we embrace Herr Einstein's principle of relativity as warmly as the next man, we ourselves cannot readily regard such a fine figure of a man as 'little'. We have noted similar comparisons before from Mr Grew with increasing admiration not unmixed with concern. We do hope Mr Grew, like Topsy, is not an unhappy victim of the cognomen syndrome. Perhaps the Member could set our mind at rest by furnishing the Group with details of his own physical dimensions.  
« Last Edit: 12:23:21, 10-07-2007 by George Garnett » Logged
increpatio
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« Reply #86 on: 12:30:47, 10-07-2007 »

So far as I know, and I do know something, the concept of "symmetry", insofar as it is useful in mathematics, does *not* constitute in any sense a mere prop - in practice the usages are entirely mathematical; though there are some who utter various catchphrases, espouse paradigms, support the odd yoga, but we are all very well aware that such things do not constitute real mathematics (however useful/beautiful such formulations might be).

Let us contribute a few words in response to Mr. Patio. We were thinking of symmetry in regard not so much to its use in proofs, as to the part it plays in the construction and invention of new mathematical entities. One very simple example is the way a mirror is held up to the whole numbers and lo! the negative integers are born.

I thank you for your contribution. Indeed, your statement just above carries much profound truth in it.

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We were thinking also of Dirac the little Bristol man when he said "It is more important to have beauty in one's equations than to have them fit the experiment." Observe there if you will that fundamental driver of us all importance.

Of course, he was a physicist.  But yes, theoretical physicists have something of a similar sense of the "importance" of "beauty" as do mathematicians.

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Poincaré too tells us that the ęsthetic rather than the logical is the dominant element in mathematical creativity. And Hardy himself wrote "The mathematician's patterns, like the painter's or the poet's, must be beautiful. A mathematician is a master of pattern."
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This particular member isn't much a fan at all of the (non-mathematical) writings of G.H. Hardy, much preferring the prose of a one Alexander Grothendieck (http://www.fermentmagazine.org/rands/recoltes1.html).

Order, as opposed to chaos, makes life comprehensible. Pattern or symmetry - one type of order - is defined and analyzed in terms of the invariants of transformation groups. Thus a plane figure possesses axial symmetry around the line y = 0 if it is unchanged by the transformation x' = -x; y' = y.

Yes; indeed, almost everything in geometry (and, indeed, all algebra and most of analysis) is studied in relationship to symmetry transformations.

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Davis and Hersch - two American professors - give us an amusing description - much too long to reproduce here in its entirety - of what the average mathematician actually does. They point out that in his work he never bothers to define the terms "exist" "rigour" or "completeness." The "objects" which he studies were unknown until thirty years ago, and even now are known to only a few dozen persons.

This is what one does in any specialist field of science! Or certainly in technical articles contained therein.  All the background material should be accessible in common text books or referenced in the bibliography, of course, and one might be able to force one's self to write the occasional expository article.

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"His writing," they go on, "follows an unbreakable convention: to conceal any sign that the author or the intended reader is a human being. It gives the impression that, from the stated definitions, the desired results follow infallibly by a purely mechanical procedure. To read his proofs, one must be privy to a whole subculture of motivations, standard arguments and examples, habits of thought and agreed-upon modes of reasoning."

This is all conventional; mathematicians usually understand mathematical articles...they are not written for the non-mathematician.  I do not see any particular problem here here.  (of course, and this is a welcome development, recently there have been many informal blogs set up by accomplished mathematicians who are willing to ramble on about their work in a rather more accessible register; but for a professional in their field, one must have access to rigorous documentation).

But yes, in what sense does such concept constitute a "prop"?  I do understand that mathematics is very-much an aesthetics-driven profession, and that one of these buzzwords that connotes beauty is "symmetry".  But yes, I do not fully understand.
« Last Edit: 12:36:50, 10-07-2007 by increpatio » Logged

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operacat
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« Reply #87 on: 20:11:46, 10-07-2007 »

BUT... we should still dump religion, as a concept, to free up time, for a better world.

Unfortunately I think it would just free up time for another sort of wrong-doing.  Don't forget when you dismiss religion as being worthless that there are literally millions of peace-loving people who follow religion who only want to do what is right and live a happy, peaceful life.

I've been spending a lot of time recently on the Richard Dawkins forum - and it isn't atheists talking to atheists, most of the time it's born-again Christians peddling daft ideas....if you don't believe me, take a look!
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John W
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« Reply #88 on: 20:36:15, 10-07-2007 »

Thanks operacat,

I DO believe you so I don't need to look

John
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roslynmuse
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« Reply #89 on: 20:37:38, 10-07-2007 »

Thanks operacat,

I DO believe you so I don't need to look

John

Belief again!
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