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Author Topic: Free speech in the USA  (Read 1817 times)
richard barrett
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« on: 22:13:23, 19-09-2007 »

Have a look at this: http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/index.php?filmID=601
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aaron cassidy
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« Reply #1 on: 23:06:27, 19-09-2007 »

Yeah, this has gotten an enormous amount of coverage here in the last few days, at least on TV.  (There's been surprisingly little in the newspaper press, I gather.)  Unfortunately, most of the coverage has been from right-leaning TV stations and is largely about Sen. Kerry's apparent lack of vocal response and anger about the incident, though I did read this slightly different view, earlier today.

The two police officers were actually just Univ. of Florida campus police, and they've both been suspended and there's an investigation ongoing regarding their actions.

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Swan_Knight
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« Reply #2 on: 23:08:38, 19-09-2007 »

 Huh

Not entirely sure what was going on there.  There's only so much you can achieve with a hand-held camera.

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...so flatterten lachend die Locken....
increpatio
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« Reply #3 on: 15:05:12, 20-09-2007 »

Bah; everyone knows that the USA (as an anthropomorphized entity) has done everything it can possibly do to encourage free speech, taking "free speech zones", for instance.

http://www.math.ucr.edu/home/baez/free_speech_zones.html

Sorry; that's not entirely related.  He was certainly not very well behaved and, if these accounts are to be believed, rather baited the police on.  That's not to say that I understood why the police did what they did; maybe tazers are seen as something rather harmless that can be freely used to keep people in line.  Saying that, I have only seen a snippit of the video (can't watch the whole clip right now).
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richard barrett
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« Reply #4 on: 15:18:23, 20-09-2007 »

He was certainly not very well behaved
No he wasn't, but I remember a time when "bad behaviour" was par for the course among students which sadly it seems not to be any more, in general, plus I don't believe that the US constitution's commitment to free speech is on condition of good behaviour. He certainly didn't do anything that would require such violent treatment. And while Senator Kerry may have mumbled something from the stage about wanting to deal with those questions, from what I've seen he hasn't actually come out and done so in the meantime since that episode. Of course he hasn't, because it would have meant admitting to partaking in the supine attitude of Democratic politicians in the face of Bush's outrages. If only journalists would ask questions like that.
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aaron cassidy
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« Reply #5 on: 15:23:23, 20-09-2007 »

That the guy was a bit of a twat seems to be clear; that the campus police reacted with an absurd amount of force is similarly clear.


A quick story, for comparison ...  when I was a child, I sang in some program that included a speech by then-VP Dan Quayle.  There was an organized protest about halfway through his speech in which something like 7-8 people stood up at locations all across the balcony seating and started chanting/yelling various anti-Bush/Quayle slogans.  One was 2-3 rows in front of me.  I vividly remember the secret service agents literally leaping over my head (this was at a spot in the auditorium where the seating was at quite a steep angle), grabbing him, lifting him up, and carrying him out of the hall.  The whole thing took, at the most, four seconds -- there was no fighting, no dragging, no tasering.  He was just picked up (more or less instantly) and whisked away.

It seems to me that a huge part of the problem in the U of FL case was that he was initially held to the ground in the auditorium, then dragged to the back of the room, still actually in the hall, and the whole thing involved a huge amount of struggle.

You guys probably don't get the Colbert Report over there (an occasionally brilliant (and sometimes horrible) show on Comedy Central that's a spoof of right-wing TV talk shows) ... anyhow, his show last night included an interesting response here   (under "Solitarity" ... it's the third video in the "recent" section), making fun of the inaction and apparent apathy of all of the other students in the room.
« Last Edit: 15:25:00, 20-09-2007 by aaron cassidy » Logged
increpatio
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« Reply #6 on: 15:48:22, 20-09-2007 »

He was certainly not very well behaved
No he wasn't, but I remember a time when "bad behaviour" was par for the course among students which sadly it seems not to be any more, in general
You would have us jumping about on the rafters?  Look; I know that disturbance has a point.  Here, I think, in fact, that it very much had a point.

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, plus I don't believe that the US constitution's commitment to free speech is on condition of good behaviour.
I didn't mean to imply that I thought that.

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You guys probably don't get the Colbert Report over there (an occasionally brilliant (and sometimes horrible) show on Comedy Central that's a spoof of right-wing TV talk shows) ... anyhow, his show last night included an interesting response here   (under "Solitarity" ... it's the third video in the "recent" section), making fun of the inaction and apparent apathy of all of the other students in the room.
I used to watch it with some regularity last year, but have rather left it drop recently.  Has its moments, certainly.   Can't watch that clip at the moment, but the point that the students did very little is a relevant one.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #7 on: 15:55:27, 20-09-2007 »

Quote
, plus I don't believe that the US constitution's commitment to free speech is on condition of good behaviour.
I didn't mean to imply that I thought that.
Nor did I mean to imply that I thought you were meaning to imply that!
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aaron cassidy
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« Reply #8 on: 15:58:33, 20-09-2007 »

He was certainly not very well behaved
No he wasn't, but I remember a time when "bad behaviour" was par for the course among students which sadly it seems not to be any more, in general
You would have us jumping about on the rafters?  Look; I know that disturbance has a point.  Here, I think, in fact, that it very much had a point.

Well, but ... that's exactly it.  This particularly disturbance didn't have a good point at all.  This is a guy who supported Kerry, voted for Kerry, and then went to a speech given by Kerry and -- three years after the fact -- berates Kerry for not fighting the results of the election (a topic which Sen. Kerry has responded to probably 85,000 times in the last three years).  The questioner then went on to suggest that the whole thing was a conspiracy dreamed up by a hokey and quite lame Yale fraternity.  

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TimR-J
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« Reply #9 on: 16:02:57, 20-09-2007 »

Also on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIYTJ75U4NU

That's a very disturbing video. I take Colbert's wider point, but he's not being entirely fair here, since if it wasn't for at least one person filming the incident and posting it to the web, none of this would have reached the news (and therefore it wouldn't have reached, er, the Colbert Report). And he does overlook the many people screaming at the campus security guys to "leave him alone" as the tasers come out. Isn't it truer to say that the student audience are basically bug-eyed, uncomprehending and vaguely amused at this guy having a bit of a looney rant, until the full horror of what is being done to him emerges - at which point they do (from what little can be made out on the video) at least sound as though they're trying to do something?
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richard barrett
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« Reply #10 on: 16:04:31, 20-09-2007 »

This particularly disturbance didn't have a good point at all.
I beg to differ. Politicians ought to be put on the spot whenever, wherever and however possible.
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increpatio
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« Reply #11 on: 16:06:29, 20-09-2007 »

This particularly disturbance didn't have a good point at all.
I beg to differ. Politicians ought to be put on the spot whenever, wherever and however possible.
Agreed.

He was certainly not very well behaved
No he wasn't, but I remember a time when "bad behaviour" was par for the course among students which sadly it seems not to be any more, in general
You would have us jumping about on the rafters?  Look; I know that disturbance has a point.  Here, I think, in fact, that it very much had a point.

Well, but ... that's exactly it.  This particularly disturbance didn't have a good point at all.

It vindicated itself, from my perspective, in its function as eliciting a very public form of what might or might not be considered police brutality.  And that's something worthy of discussion, neh?

(of course, people go nuts as public talks all the time; maybe not to the extent he did, but generally there're usually a few people who don't know/care much about the etiquette of these things).

Also on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIYTJ75U4NU

That's a very disturbing video. I take Colbert's wider point, but he's not being entirely fair here, since if it wasn't for at least one person filming the incident and posting it to the web, none of this would have reached the news (and therefore it wouldn't have reached, er, the Colbert Report). And he does overlook the many people screaming at the campus security guys to "leave him alone" as the tasers come out. Isn't it truer to say that the student audience are basically bug-eyed, uncomprehending and vaguely amused at this guy having a bit of a looney rant, until the full horror of what is being done to him emerges - at which point they do (from what little can be made out on the video) at least sound as though they're trying to do something?

Ah okay; as I've said I haven't seen the whole video, so.
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aaron cassidy
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« Reply #12 on: 16:38:24, 20-09-2007 »

This particularly disturbance didn't have a good point at all.
I beg to differ. Politicians ought to be put on the spot whenever, wherever and however possible.

A great moment of political activism and revolution this was not, Richard. 

And, incre, these weren't actual police officers.  Their actions were deplorable, and they've been suspended and there's an investigation which seems will likely result in their firing -- but, let's be clear, they're glorified security guards. 
« Last Edit: 16:46:21, 20-09-2007 by aaron cassidy » Logged
Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #13 on: 16:39:33, 20-09-2007 »

I found myself wondering how this might have been reported had it happened in my neck-of-the-woods?  Martin Kettle and Nick Cohen are so keen on standards that they keep two sets handy.
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TimR-J
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« Reply #14 on: 16:42:11, 20-09-2007 »

And, TRJ, these weren't actual police officers.  Their actions were deplorable, and they've been suspended and there's an investigation which seems will likely result in their firing -- but, let's be clear, they're glorified security guards. 

Er, I was careful to call them "campus security guys" ...

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« Last Edit: 16:47:45, 20-09-2007 by TimR-J » Logged
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