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Author Topic: how the other half crunches  (Read 5589 times)
richard barrett
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« Reply #15 on: 13:43:26, 11-09-2008 »

people who begrudge others earning a lot might take into account that they may be keeping a lot of other people on it and that they might share their hard-earned "good fortune".

Yes but history clearly shows that, with a very few exceptions, they don't. As I say, it's not a question of begrudging certain things to others, it's one of a desire to see those things equally shared between all. Can there be any fundamental ethical justification for such inequality as we see around us?
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increpatio
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« Reply #16 on: 13:47:35, 11-09-2008 »

Can there be any fundamental ethical justification for such inequality as we see around us?
To some extent one can say that some people simply do not want as much wealth as others.  I know that I don't, especially.  I'm happy for the moment to scrape by.  Should people such as me have wealth foisted upon us? We would be most put out!
« Last Edit: 13:49:44, 11-09-2008 by increpatio » Logged

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Milly Jones
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« Reply #17 on: 13:52:13, 11-09-2008 »

people who begrudge others earning a lot might take into account that they may be keeping a lot of other people on it and that they might share their hard-earned "good fortune".

Yes but history clearly shows that, with a very few exceptions, they don't. As I say, it's not a question of begrudging certain things to others, it's one of a desire to see those things equally shared between all. Can there be any fundamental ethical justification for such inequality as we see around us?

Ah well Richard, it's like this.  It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven.  

Unfortunately, why communism doesn't work except on paper, is that if you shared everything out equally between everyone - in 12 months time there would be rich and poor again.  The sad thing is that a fool and his money are soon parted and some people are more astute than others.  Human nature I'm afraid.  

Morally it's wrong that there is rich and poor, of course it is.  It's wrong to have NHS and private health care which gives faster and more efficient treatment just because you can pay.  It's wrong to have State schools and private schools where you receive a better education (usually).  I have double standards.  I hate the system, I fundamentally agree with you Richard - but for myself and my own family I want the best and have acted accordingly I'm afraid.
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stuart macrae
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« Reply #18 on: 13:56:54, 11-09-2008 »

people who begrudge others earning a lot

no, I don't begrudge people being rewarded adequately for working very hard and being very good at their jobs, over a long period of time.

As you can see, I wasn't having a go at hard-working people, or even high earners, and I wouldn't presume to make assumptions about your own tax affairs. But I do feel that the very highest incomes have been inflated out of all proportion to what the ordinary person can command in the last couple of decades - whether or not these salaries have been negotiated fairly is beside the point: such a distribution of wealth contributes to the increasing inequalities in our society and the only effective means of redress that I can think of is the tax system - as Richard says, the 'trickle-down' theory hasn't worked. My issue is with what can be considered a reasonably handsome reward for hard work and excellence. And I merely suggest that one person earning ten times the average could be considered to be extremely well-rewarded. One hundred times the average is, I would say, beyond entitlement.

As an aside, someone very close to me often puts in 60-hour weeks and earns about £12,000 a year before tax. So hard work is not always (or even often) adequately rewarded.
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George Garnett
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« Reply #19 on: 14:01:07, 11-09-2008 »

In america as of 2006 (see here), we have 2.2% of people at minimum wage or lower.  Not the happiest of statistics, given the rather low minimum wage in america.  I'm unable to find any statistics relating directly to those of us in the british Isles, alas.

The UK Office of National Statistics give a figure of 292,000 being paid below the minimum wage for Spring 2007, equivalent to 1.2% of jobs in the labour market at that date.

No figures for 2008 yet but I do know of at least one, my daughter Sad.
« Last Edit: 14:58:06, 11-09-2008 by George Garnett » Logged
IgnorantRockFan
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« Reply #20 on: 14:01:50, 11-09-2008 »

I have worked out that if the CEO of my company gave up his salary and distributed it equally among the workers, my salary would rise by about £1000 per annum. That's about fifty quid a month in my pocket, after tax.

Now while I would certainly notice an extra fifty pounds in my pocket, it wouldn't really impact my quality of life.

(I'm not making a point... just an observation.)

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IgnorantRockFan
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« Reply #21 on: 14:07:59, 11-09-2008 »

In america as of 2006 (see here), we have 2.2% of people at minimum wage or lower.  Not the happiest of statistics, given the rather low minimum wage in america.  I'm unable to find any statistics relating directly to those of us in the british Isles, alas.

The UK Office of National Statistics give a figure of 292,000 at or below the minimum wage for Spring 2007, equivalent to 1.2% of jobs in the labour market at that date.

How can one be below a minimum wage? It seems to suggest that something has gone fundamentally wrong with definitions  Undecided

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richard barrett
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« Reply #22 on: 14:09:20, 11-09-2008 »

if you shared everything out equally between everyone - in 12 months time there would be rich and poor again.  The sad thing is that a fool and his money are soon parted and some people are more astute than others.  Human nature I'm afraid.  

In my opinion you're taking a huge leap of faith to saying all of that is "just human nature". Human beings have to act in selfish ways in our present society in order to be "successful", but that isn't the same thing as saying that human beings are inherently selfish. One could equally say that without collective activity and cooperation there'd be no society in the first place and that "therefore" human beings are inherently unselfish. The truth I think is that human "nature" evolves through history in step with the evolution of society. Human nature is a dynamic process rather than a static condition. So your argument here strikes me as denying the fact of evolution and change which we see in every aspect of reality, and I can't bring myself to look at things in such a defeatist way.

IRF, the fact of the matter is that in the world as a whole the poorest half of the population own less than 1% of the wealth, and the richest 1% own 40% of it.
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Morticia
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« Reply #23 on: 14:09:38, 11-09-2008 »

'As an aside, someone very close to me often puts in 60-hour weeks and earns about £12,000 a year before tax. So hard work is not always (or even often) adequately rewarded.'
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Indeed it it not, Stuart, particularly in the caring or teaching professions to name but two examples.

Mils, unfortunately many people are not in a position to be able to negotiate their salaries, they have to take what is on the tin. My salary has effectively gone down now because of the payment Band system used by my company. It is impossible for me to earn any more,  their yearly increments do not keep pace with inflation and are meaningless anyway, since they are given at their discretion.
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #24 on: 14:16:09, 11-09-2008 »

In america as of 2006 (see here), we have 2.2% of people at minimum wage or lower.  Not the happiest of statistics, given the rather low minimum wage in america.  I'm unable to find any statistics relating directly to those of us in the british Isles, alas.

The UK Office of National Statistics give a figure of 292,000 at or below the minimum wage for Spring 2007, equivalent to 1.2% of jobs in the labour market at that date.

No figures for 2008 yet but I do know of at least one, my daughter, who is being paid less than the minimum wage Sad.

I find that statistic very hard to believe, GG, when most large retail organisations pay the majority of their staff the minimum wage as a matter of course. Indeed, I know of one major retailer where the basic is below, and the balance is to be made up from commission targets. If staff don't achieve their targets, they don't receive even the minimum wage.
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increpatio
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« Reply #25 on: 14:36:41, 11-09-2008 »

How can one be below a minimum wage? It seems to suggest that something has gone fundamentally wrong with definitions  Undecided
Young people don't have to be paid minimum wage, is what I'd guess that figure is taking into account (that's what the case was with the american figure I think).
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HtoHe
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« Reply #26 on: 14:47:24, 11-09-2008 »

I have worked out that if the CEO of my company gave up his salary and distributed it equally among the workers, my salary would rise by about £1000 per annum. That's about fifty quid a month in my pocket, after tax.

Now while I would certainly notice an extra fifty pounds in my pocket, it wouldn't really impact my quality of life.

(I'm not making a point... just an observation.)



And if you conscientiously saved that extra £50 you would, in a mere 6 million years or so, have saved a sum equivalent to the Duke of Westminster's present wealth.  Just an observation from another perspective, IRF.  I tend to agree with Richard - only the abolition of property can really change anything.  Marx recognised over a century ago that the notion of 'a fair day's pay for a fair day's work' could easily be interpreted in a way that suited the most conservative of people and the true revolutionary called for 'abolition of the wages system'.
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IgnorantRockFan
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« Reply #27 on: 14:55:31, 11-09-2008 »

While I might agree with the abolition of property in an idealistic sense, I cannot conceive of what a society which did that would look like. I don't think it would resemble human civilization as we know it today. I also fear that many of the things which we take for granted today would simply not happen (in any recognisabe fashion).

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George Garnett
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« Reply #28 on: 14:57:05, 11-09-2008 »

I find that statistic very hard to believe, GG, when most large retail organisations pay the majority of their staff the minimum wage as a matter of course.

Whoops! My fault, Ron, not ONS's. I misread across two columns. Those figures are for people below the statutory minimum wage, not 'at or below'. Apologies. Yes, those figures were obviously too low as stated Roll Eyes. Now corrected in earlier post.
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Kittybriton
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« Reply #29 on: 15:13:18, 11-09-2008 »

IRF, the fact of the matter is that in the world as a whole the poorest half of the population own less than 1% of the wealth, and the richest 1% own 40% of it.
On days when I'm feeling more hard done by than average, I can stop and reflect that:
I have
  • access to three computers and the internet
  • the use of two phones
  • the use of a minivan and bike
  • a roof which doesn't leak over my head
  • a comfortable and warm place to sleep (and retire to if the weather is nasty)
  • no shortage of food
Based on those facts alone, I can count myself in the top 10% of the world's wealthiest people. And with that wealth comes a certain amount of responsibility to my brothers and sisters who are less wealthy.
And as for the national average wage, before I left England, I never earned anything close to that much. Neither did anybody I knew.
« Last Edit: 15:18:14, 11-09-2008 by Kittybriton » Logged

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