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Poll
Question: Oedipus Rex - do you like it?
Crowning Glory - 3 (21.4%)
Prince Regent - 8 (57.1%)
Not tonight, Mum - 2 (14.3%)
Train Rex - 1 (7.1%)
Total Voters: 13

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Author Topic: Stravinsky's Oedipus Rex  (Read 1440 times)
Ron Dough
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« Reply #30 on: 09:31:32, 25-08-2007 »

Perhaps we ought to consider the piece in its context.

The first performance (in a concert version) was 1927, its first staging the following year. Operas appearing within a couple of years of those dates include Wozzeck and L'Enfant et les Sortilèges (1925), Turandot, The Makropoulos Affair and Cardillac (1926), Schwanda the Bagpiper (1927), Die Aegyptische Helena (1928) Sir John in Love (1929) and From the House of the Dead (1930). This might help to emphasize just how different it was from what was happening around it; Stravinsky was totally unaffected by the Berg work which is to become a seminal force thereafter, particularly to Shostakovich and Britten: everything else there shows traditional opera traits, with the possible exception of the Ravel (at least as far as staging requirements). This is a composer who is refusing to accept the status quo, looking instead for new forms of expression. Perhaps only when we view it alongside its contemporaries can we begin to see just how innovative this opera really is.
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #31 on: 11:54:02, 25-08-2007 »

[*Intriguingly labelled "Stravinsky the Composer, Volume 1". Should I be looking out for Stravinsky the delta blues guitarist, or is it a reference to his old dad the opera singer?  Cheesy]
Stravinsky the Pianist (which could be either Igor or Soulima I suppose)
Stravinsky the Conductor
That's what I'd assume anyway.
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'is this all we can do?'
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #32 on: 12:10:18, 25-08-2007 »

Quote
Stravinsky the Pianist (which could be either Igor or Soulima I suppose)
Stravinsky the Conductor
That's what I'd assume anyway.

The composer's grandson, Marius Stravinsky, is also a conductor... a pupil of Vladimir Ponkin, and he has taken-over some performances from his pedagogue at Helikon Opera in Moscow recently... very competently, I might add.
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Ron Dough
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« Reply #33 on: 12:22:03, 25-08-2007 »

Volume 2 tells a subtly different story; it's labelled  IGOR STRAVINSKY - THE COMPOSER, thus permitting a reading claiming his superiority over all others... contains a reading of The Wedding (Les Noces, Svadebka) (sic) quite different to the Koch/Naxos version (Orchestra of St Lukes/Gregg Smith Singers as opposed to the Simon Joly Chorale).
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #34 on: 12:28:37, 25-08-2007 »

just how innovative this opera really is.
But is it an opera?
It's more like a staged oratorio in my mind.
Stravinsky sees with hallucinogenic clarity what an oratorio could be...
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'is this all we can do?'
anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965)
http://www.myspace.com/itensemble
Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #35 on: 12:31:53, 25-08-2007 »

Quote
But is it an opera?
It's more like a staged oratorio in my mind.

Is there actually an estabished difference?  (I ask without any mischief in mind Wink )
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
harmonyharmony
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« Reply #36 on: 12:40:01, 25-08-2007 »

Well I suppose in Handel's London, an oratorio was simply an unstaged opera, but as a genre I think that it gained independence and that composers (possibly through the rediscovery of the Baroque in the 19th century?) generally sought to emphasise the realistic and dramatic aspects of opera, while in oratorio it is the reflective and the static that were emphasised. Stravinsky seems to be attempting some kind of conjuring trick - while he keeps the past at arm's length, he shows us that this established art-form is closer to ideas of ancient Greek theatre than we imagined (is there also a Brechtian influence here? I seem to remember Max Paddison saying something about this in my second year...)
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'is this all we can do?'
anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965)
http://www.myspace.com/itensemble
Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #37 on: 12:49:19, 25-08-2007 »

I've seen several operas in which the reflective and the static were very much to the fore Wink

I know what you mean, though...  on the urgings of various forum-members here I recently got hold of the Glyndebourne THEODORA production..  in which a Handel Oratorio gets staged anyhow.  I have to say I was bored to tears, and watched most of it on fast-forward.  The music and libretto just don't lend themselves to staging at all, and it's not been for want of trying from the Glyndebourne team.

Conversely, I do find OEDIPUS REX can make compelling theatre, despite its flintiness and the "Greek Chorus" as a vehicle for narrating the story. 
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
oliver sudden
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« Reply #38 on: 12:58:25, 25-08-2007 »

on the urgings of various forum-members here I recently got hold of the Glyndebourne THEODORA production..  in which a Handel Oratorio gets staged anyhow.  I have to say I was bored to tears, and watched most of it on fast-forward. 

I'd never have thought it was possible for me to bring Reiner to tears but I seem to have managed it... Wink

Oh well, it does it for me. I think I may be more of a Handel fan than Reiner is though? Reiner, if you like I'll buy it from you and give it a good home. Can't say fairer than that.

Handel's first oratorios seem to have been in Italy, for performance at times of the year (e.g. Lent, I think) when operas weren't allowed to be put on. And indeed some were basically surrogate operas - but without certain drama-killing conventions such as characters having to leave the stage after their arias (a convention Handel uses so gorgeously in Tamerlano, but that's another story).

Oedipus Rex is called an 'opera-oratorio' in the score and indeed in the narrative.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #39 on: 13:14:15, 25-08-2007 »

I haven't seen Theodora but much of the music is quite ravishing, as I remember.

On the subject of something that's neither opera nor oratorio, perhaps Nono's Prometeo ought to be mentioned. Indeed his other two operas consist more of tableaux than action, but Prometeo seems to be conceived almost to be experienced with eyes closed.

Perhaps the theatrical form Oedipus could be most closely related to is the Japanese No drama. I can imagine it very well being staged in that style.
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #40 on: 13:17:08, 25-08-2007 »

the Japanese No drama. I can imagine it very well being staged in that style.

Hasn't it been done in fact? I have some vague memory to that effect.

There's No business like Sho business. Just wanted to say that.

Prometeo is indeed subtitled 'tragedia dell'ascolto', as Richard of course knows but others might not.
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #41 on: 13:17:53, 25-08-2007 »

Perhaps the theatrical form Oedipus could be most closely related to is the Japanese No drama. I can imagine it very well being staged in that style.
Ooh! Ooh! Ooh!
It's been done. I think that we've got a video/DVD of it in the library...
It works very well if memory serves.

Were there other opera-oratorios floating around at the time? Just how innovatory was Stravinsky when it comes to these ambiguous falling-between-stools-neither-one-thing-or-tuther works?
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'is this all we can do?'
anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965)
http://www.myspace.com/itensemble
oliver sudden
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« Reply #42 on: 13:19:17, 25-08-2007 »

Psst, hh:

Perhaps we ought to consider the piece in its context.

The first performance (in a concert version) was 1927, its first staging the following year. Operas appearing within a couple of years of those dates include Wozzeck and L'Enfant et les Sortilèges (1925), Turandot, The Makropoulos Affair and Cardillac (1926), Schwanda the Bagpiper (1927), Die Aegyptische Helena (1928) Sir John in Love (1929) and From the House of the Dead (1930). This might help to emphasize just how different it was from what was happening around it; Stravinsky was totally unaffected by the Berg work which is to become a seminal force thereafter, particularly to Shostakovich and Britten: everything else there shows traditional opera traits, with the possible exception of the Ravel (at least as far as staging requirements). This is a composer who is refusing to accept the status quo, looking instead for new forms of expression. Perhaps only when we view it alongside its contemporaries can we begin to see just how innovative this opera really is.
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #43 on: 13:24:32, 25-08-2007 »

If we're looking at N?-styled operas, then we have to consider Britten: Curlew River is as close to picking up a Japanese drama (Sumidagawa) and giving to a babel fish as is possible; the orchestra in the Stravinsky is out of scale...
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #44 on: 13:34:15, 25-08-2007 »

Oh, I like Handel a great deal, I listen to him with great enthusiasm and rather frequently (and occasionally perform and stage stuff).  But I just couldn't find the "maguffin" in THEODORA, despite some pretty music in it..  it's not a stage piece by nature, and there are some awful hiatuses in the action.  I couldn't really believe at all in Theodora's charismatic cultists, and that was my main problem with the production...  I had no sympathy for them at all Wink  Neither, though, are the baddies very bad... they are rather like panto villains, who just revel in being very naughty but have no credible advantage from being so. The persecution of Theodora's cult doesn't ring true... WHY do they want to persecute them?  (something more could have been made of that in the libretto, the "fear of the other", or a religion which threatens the rule of an earthly monarch... but these themes aren't developed in the drama).  The ending is clever, certainly, and it makes for a haunting picture at the final curtain (good rule of thumb to observe generally).  I think the production has tried very hard to prise a drama out of something that well, isn't one.  A good show ought to have "something to say", some more substantial moral conclusion which runs deeper than its subject matter...  THEODORA isn't much more than the sum of its parts, though.

Turning to OEDIPUS R however, there is lots of drama in there! And double-layered parallel - "the assassin of the King is a King" in parallel with "the cure for the Plague has itself brought a Plague".  And despite the tendency towards "oratorio" there are some moments of intense emotion - not least Jocasta's horror at the realisation of the identity of her lover.  The interplay of heavenly powers with earthly realities is another theme that could be brought out...  we sit back and calmly accept as "fact" stories about the Golden Apple setting the Trojan War in motion...  or the Oracle speaking truth, or Creon...  but suppose there ARE no "gods"?  Suppose it's all a heap of hokum invented to justify the otherwise-unacceptable behaviour of men??  This has been a theme in opera since the earliest days of the form...  CORONATION OF POPPEA begins with a Prologue in which Goddesses sport over the fate of Men...  but, ummm, in staunchly Roman-Catholic Italy do we really believe in Greek Gods?  Aren't they just a salve to the consciences of sinners?  Are the "gods" directing Oedipus... or is he just a sword-happy bed-hopping hooligan?   Anyhow, plenty of material in there for at least three different productions of the piece Smiley

Ta for the offer, but THEODORA is very well-sung and well-played, and I'll hang onto the disk for the sound, at least Smiley

PS Ollie, what were you going to say about the use of the exit-aria convention in TAMERLANO?  It's a piece that's absorbing a lot of my interest currently, so all input gratefully received...
« Last Edit: 13:36:49, 25-08-2007 by Reiner Torheit » Logged

"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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