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Poll
Question: Which is your favourite Sullivan opera?
The Sorcerer
HMS Pinafore
The Pirates of Penzance
Patience
Iolanthe
Princess Ida
The Mikado
Ruddigore
The Yeomen of the Guard
The Gondoliers
Utopia Ltd
The Grand Duke
Ivanhoe
Another not listed

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Author Topic: Ruddigore and the rest  (Read 3829 times)
Tony Watson
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« on: 16:40:39, 26-01-2008 »

I thought it might be useful to have a thread devoted to Gilbert and Sullivan.

As I never tire of mentioning, I acquired a full score of Ruddigore a few days ago and so I’ve been digging out all my recordings recently and this includes a video (now a DVD) that I’d hadn’t seen for quite some time. Made in 1982, I was surprised to see that Richard Dauntless was played by the tenor John Treleaven, who is nowadays noted particularly for his roles in Wagner of course. It’s just a shame that two of his songs are cut, apparently to make the whole thing last under two hours for American television.

It also has Johanna Peters in the contralto role, who was a regular at Glyndebourne and who was also a very good actress on this evidence (she died in 2000). Then there’s Vincent Price as the wicked baronet. His singing voice is weak (he was about 70 at the time) but it’s near enough to the notes and his camp style of horror does suit this role.

Although some of the direction is soft and the camera tricks crude, I rather like the production, though I’m not so keen on Keith Michell as Robin, an actor who was on television a lot in the 1970s.
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #1 on: 17:30:31, 26-01-2008 »

There's so much "baggage" attached to Gilbert & Sullivan that it's almost a disaster to your career to be even connected with it - but I will happily admit to being a fan of the material. 

What I have no interest at all in is all the stuff about who played who and said what and cut which line in 1957 in a performance of The Grand Duke in Bognor Regis Smiley

I think they are witty pieces that stand up well against Offenbach, and - dare I say it - are a bit more amusing than L'ELISIR D'AMORE.  There is quite a lot of lame stuff that gets treated "seriously" because it's by non-English composers... for example, Wolf-Ferrari's SCHOOL FOR FATHERS (which is worth leaving the country to avoid).

I have to say, I barely know RUDD(I/Y)GORE at all, except for the "Ghost's High Noon" chorus, a superb spoof of Weber, Marschner et al Smiley 

If G&S had only been German - how we should love them then! Wink   DIE PIRATEN VON ROSTOCK...
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Tony Watson
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« Reply #2 on: 20:14:23, 26-01-2008 »

What I have no interest at all in is all the stuff about who played who and said what and cut which line in 1957 in a performance of The Grand Duke in Bognor Regis.

No, but you might be interested in who played Robin Oakapple in 1991. Below is a clipping from the Shropshire Star, 19 April 1991. In the middle is yours truly as the aforesaid, with Old Adam on the left and a gentleman of the chorus on the right.


There were no cuts apart from the usual ones but we played the original overture and the original finale to act two.
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #3 on: 20:15:53, 26-01-2008 »

I haven't listened to Ruddigore for years, and I don't think I have seen it.  The bits may be better than the whole, but gems include:

the tenor's entrance ballad, sending up Dibden, though how far anyone gets the joke in the words the first time round, I doubt.  (The jolly jack tars run away from a French ship, and say that proves their bravery and British pluck etc.)

the soubrette's entrance (Mad Margaret) is a rather touching ballad preceded by a substantial recit which is the only Mad Scene I can remember in G&S.

the contralto's ballad of the Curse of Ruddigore sends up the situation of Trovatore, and prepares for the mock horrors of the Ghost scene.

the patter trio in Act II is quite as exhilirating as the duet in Don Pasquale.

and the duet in Act II for the reformed Mad Margaret and bad baronet now they run a temperance mission is like nothing else.

It is the odd one out of the Savoy operas in that the hero was played by George Grossmith.  But I like the fact tenors don't always play the juv lead.  Good on you Tony.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Tony Watson
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« Reply #4 on: 20:23:57, 26-01-2008 »

Thanks for that, DB. (And thanks, RT, too - I know what you mean about careers, although John Treleaven has done rather well since, as have Valerie Masterson, Gillian Knight and Charles Mackerras.)

the soubrette's entrance (Mad Margaret) is a rather touching ballad preceded by a substantial recit which is the only Mad Scene I can remember in G&S.

Julia Jellicoe, the soprano lead in The Grand Duke (sorry, Reiner!), gives a demonstration of how to act a mad scene in act two.

George Grossmith was taken seriously ill after about a week into the original run with perotinitis - the same thing that killed Rudolph Valentino at a young age.
« Last Edit: 20:40:33, 26-01-2008 by Tony Watson » Logged
Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #5 on: 20:47:44, 26-01-2008 »

Blimey, I will spare you the pics of myself as a Yeoman Warder in the late 1970's Smiley Some girl named Susan Bullock did alright for herself after appearing as Elsie, though Smiley
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Tony Watson
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« Reply #6 on: 20:54:50, 26-01-2008 »

I should have added that our percussionist was a young Adrian Spillett, who went on to win the BBC Young Musician of the Year in 1998 - the first percussionist to do so.
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Tony Watson
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« Reply #7 on: 09:33:27, 27-01-2008 »

And the more I think of it, the less I agree that singing G&S can ruin a career. I've got a recording of The Yeomen of the Guard with Thomas Allen (then at the height of his career and he was very keen to do it) and Bryn Terfel (who was just starting to make a name for himself). Their reputations are still very much intact.
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #8 on: 10:22:01, 27-01-2008 »

And the more I think of it, the less I agree that singing G&S can ruin a career. I've got a recording of The Yeomen of the Guard with Thomas Allen (then at the height of his career and he was very keen to do it) and Bryn Terfel (who was just starting to make a name for himself). Their reputations are still very much intact.

Really? Hasn't the latter all but renounced the world of opera for the easier short-term gain of cross-over? The name he's made for himself due to his pulling out of the R.O.H. Ring cycle would appear to be 'mud'.
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Tony Watson
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« Reply #9 on: 18:03:32, 27-01-2008 »

And the more I think of it, the less I agree that singing G&S can ruin a career. I've got a recording of The Yeomen of the Guard with Thomas Allen (then at the height of his career and he was very keen to do it) and Bryn Terfel (who was just starting to make a name for himself). Their reputations are still very much intact.

Really? Hasn't the latter all but renounced the world of opera for the easier short-term gain of cross-over? The name he's made for himself due to his pulling out of the R.O.H. Ring cycle would appear to be 'mud'.

Fair enough. But that aspect of his reputation is not a consequence of his having sung the part of Wilfred Shadbolt. (He could always have said that he was young and he needed the money.)

He also sang in a performance of Verdi's Requiem for my local choral society, before he became famous.
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MabelJane
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« Reply #10 on: 21:29:19, 27-01-2008 »

What I have no interest at all in is all the stuff about who played who and said what and cut which line in 1957 in a performance of The Grand Duke in Bognor Regis.
No, but you might be interested in who played Robin Oakapple in 1991.
Cheesy
And you might be interested in who played Mabel in 1981!

Sorry - couldn't resist posting it again! Happy days! I loved singing in G&S productions - as I wasn't familiar with much of the music before performing in them, I relished getting to know Sullivan's superbly crafted and imaginative music - even he underated it himself - though I suppose it was just the fact he wanted to be regarded as a serious composer composing serious stuff.

Blimey, I will spare you the pics of myself as a Yeoman Warder in the late 1970's Smiley
I'd like to see the photographic evidence Reiner!
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Merely corroborative detail, intended to give artistic verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative.
Don Basilio
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« Reply #11 on: 21:36:26, 27-01-2008 »

Happy days, indeed MabelJane.  I have been a tone deaf member of the jury in Trial by J, and Ruth Elleson has certainly been one of Major Stanley's daughters at Buxton, but I'll leave her to tell the story herself.

As for the alleged Curse of G'n'S.

Thomas Allen sang Jack Point for Phillips (with Kurt Streit as the tenor) and Captain Corocan after he had made his name as Billy Budd, etc.  There is a worthy tradition of singers unbending with G'n'S after they had made their name elsewhere.  Anthony Rolfe Johnson as Nanki Poo, Allen as Captain Corcoran (with Micahel Schade as the tenor) and Mark John Ainsley as Frederick are all readily available.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #12 on: 21:40:44, 27-01-2008 »

Ditto Anthony Raffell  (the Wotan of the ENO cursed powerhouse RING that never got beyond VALKYRIE) appeared as Sir Richard Cholmondely on the D'Oyly Carte recording of YEOMEN Smiley
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Tony Watson
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« Reply #13 on: 18:46:25, 06-02-2008 »

I know that TOP has achieved some notoriety in some areas recently but the occasional gem can be found over there, like this comment by "calulham" in response to the broadcast of the Gondoliers overture a couple of days ago:

One of Sullivan's gifts was to make a small pit orchestra produce a rich texture redolent of much larger forces. Add to this his enthusiasm for Mozart and an unerring light touch and, for me at least, the magic is worked.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbradio3/F6643899?thread=5067150

I agree entirely. Sullivan always said that anyone wanting to learn orchestration would do well to look at how Mozart did it. And as for a rich texture from a pit band of about 30 players, I wonder whether that's partly achieved by having the two horns holding on to notes, doing something similar to what the right pedal on a piano does. The trouble with the vocal scores is that they don’t include many of the little touches that bring the music to life in the orchestra.

On the same thread, someone says that apart from the overture, the Gondoliers can be a bit of bore. I must admit, it's not my favourite and I can never quite understand its popularity. Ruddigore was criticized for having a weak second act but that of the Gondoliers is mostly about people waiting around for someone (Inez) to arrive.

The overture to the Gondoliers that was broadcast on Breakfast was that by Neville Marriner and the ASMF. He used the Malcolm Sargent version, which tags on the cachucha to the end. In the 1920s Sullivan’s scores were "improved" by him, Geoffrey Toye and the D'Oyly Carte music director Harry Norris. That usually included extra brass or cymbal clashes. Of course, I don't approve of tarting things up like that!
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Donna Elvira
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« Reply #14 on: 15:05:01, 07-02-2008 »

Thanks for starting this thread, Tony.  My first G&S experience was as one of General Stanley's daughters when I was at school and I absolutely loved it.  Later, I was always to be found in the orchestra pit when I really wanted to be on the stage (never mind that I have an atrocious singing voice  Cheesy).  At one performance of The Mikado, one of the Japanese ladies chucked her fan into the orchestra pit and I have an abiding memory of one of our teachers on his hands and knees, crawling into the pit to try to retrieve it.  Happy days!
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