time_is_now
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« Reply #30 on: 11:56:18, 08-02-2008 » |
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Martle - it would be nice if I could be this articulate about real music, but it's nice you're listening in...
I'm listening in too, and learning plenty about 19th-century opera I didn't already know or hadn't put into words/concepts ...
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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Tony Watson
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« Reply #31 on: 12:56:36, 08-02-2008 » |
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One item of a "real C19 opera" is a soprano/tenor love duet. Do you mean operas with a serious love interest, DB? I can't think of such a duet in Das Rheingold or even in The Barber of Seville (I'm not counting the serenading of Rosina or the few exchanged words she has with the duke). One interesting fact about the opening night of Ruddigore. Lord Randolph Churchill (father of Winston), whose letter of resignation from the Conservative government has just been read out in the Commons earlier that day, was present. In the interval, he went outside for a cigarette and bumped into a leading Liberal politician. This led to speculation that he was going to swop sides and when he took his seat for the second half there was booing from the audience. It is thought by some that that put sections of the audience in a disagreeable mood, which led to some booing at the end of the performance.
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #32 on: 17:10:59, 08-02-2008 » |
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OK, Tony and we can add Le Comte Ory, L'italiana in Algeri (I think) and Parsifal. But tenor soprano love duets are the definite exception rather than the rule.
I can only think of two in GnS,
A In Pirates, Mabel and Frederic have a full blown Gran Scena and Duetto with dramatic opening (Stay, Frederic, stay) slow section (Ah leave my not to pine alone - more Stainer than Verdi admittedly) and cabaletta (O here is love and here is truth) all in under five minutes. It is the most obvious send up of ottocento convention I can think of in the Savoy operas.
B In Mikardo Nanki Poo and Yum Yum's kissing duet is sending up romantic convention -This is what I'd never do, this o this, o this, this is what I'd never do - while having a chaste little snog.
Both are send-ups - the most hearfelt love duet prpobably is the one where the male juvenile was the bass, Iolanthe, where the hero was created by Richard Temple who also created the Mikardo - "None shall part us from each other" in Act 1.
To make up for the possible sentimentality, Iolanthe is the only work that I can think of with TWO love duets, and the Act 2 one is far more cynical: "If wer'e weak enough to tarry, ere we marry, you and I, With a more attractive maiden, jewel laden, you may fly, so I think we will not tarry if we marry you and I."
It is extraordinary how Gilbert can have such brutally cynical material and appear clean family fun. Sullivan's lightness of touch makes all the difference.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven. A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #33 on: 17:20:59, 08-02-2008 » |
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Parsifal
You can tell I'm not a Wagner buff, but in my defence let me say A Kundry is a mezzo and B its a seduction duet OK, but not exactly a love duet.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven. A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
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Ruth Elleson
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« Reply #34 on: 17:21:33, 08-02-2008 » |
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How about Casilda and Luiz's lovely two-section duet in the middle of Act 1 of The Gondoliers: "Oh, rapture - When alone together" followed later in the same scene by "There was a time, a time forever gone"? Admittedly Luiz is very much a subsidiary character - at least that's what everybody thinks at the time - but that duet is a real G&S highlight for me.
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Oft hat ein Seufzer, deiner Harf' entflossen, Ein süßer, heiliger Akkord von dir Den Himmel beßrer Zeiten mir erschlossen, Du holde Kunst, ich danke dir dafür!
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #35 on: 17:24:08, 08-02-2008 » |
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The FIRST-act finales (second-act in the case of Princess Ida, which has a third act) are certainly one of the joys of G&S, but I'd question whether the Act 2 finales come into the same category.
The Act 2 finales are so perfunctory that I was not counting them. Utopia Limited has an original Act 2 final song - Sullivan wrote the tune first, which Gilbert hated.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven. A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
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Ruth Elleson
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« Reply #36 on: 17:25:43, 08-02-2008 » |
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Thought of another duet for soprano and tenor - not a love duet, though the pair in question get together within five minutes of it finishing! "Refrain, audacious tar" from Pinafore.
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Oft hat ein Seufzer, deiner Harf' entflossen, Ein süßer, heiliger Akkord von dir Den Himmel beßrer Zeiten mir erschlossen, Du holde Kunst, ich danke dir dafür!
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #37 on: 17:27:51, 08-02-2008 » |
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How about Casilda and Luiz's lovely two-section duet in the middle of Act 1 of The Gondoliers: "Oh, rapture - When alone together" followed later in the same scene by "There was a time, a time forever gone"? Admittedly Luiz is very much a subsidiary character - at least that's what everybody thinks at the time - but that duet is a real G&S highlight for me. Yes, agreed. It is for baritone and soprano. I am sure it was Gilbert who decided the voice part for each role (and which actor) was playing which character. He seems to have had a greater aversion to tenors than Richard Strauss.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven. A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #38 on: 17:28:45, 08-02-2008 » |
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Thought of another duet for soprano and tenor - not a love duet, though the pair in question get together within five minutes of it finishing! "Refrain, audacious tar" from Pinafore.
Isn't it actually the start of the Act 1 finale?
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven. A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
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Ruth Elleson
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« Reply #39 on: 17:30:01, 08-02-2008 » |
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How about Casilda and Luiz's lovely two-section duet in the middle of Act 1 of The Gondoliers: "Oh, rapture - When alone together" followed later in the same scene by "There was a time, a time forever gone"? Admittedly Luiz is very much a subsidiary character - at least that's what everybody thinks at the time - but that duet is a real G&S highlight for me. Yes, agreed. It is for baritone and soprano. I am sure it was Gilbert who decided the voice part for each role (and which actor) was playing which character. He seems to have had a greater aversion to tenors than Richard Strauss. I am sure Luiz is a tenor role. It may be lowish, but I have always heard it sung by a tenor...
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Oft hat ein Seufzer, deiner Harf' entflossen, Ein süßer, heiliger Akkord von dir Den Himmel beßrer Zeiten mir erschlossen, Du holde Kunst, ich danke dir dafür!
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Ruth Elleson
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« Reply #40 on: 17:32:37, 08-02-2008 » |
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He seems to have had a greater aversion to tenors than Richard Strauss. Not half as great as his aversion to contraltos. The solo roles are all appalling old bags (albeit with some - but not many - lovely songs) and the choral alto lines are deadly dull. Fortunately the soubrette mezzo roles are mostly quite interesting. (Can't stay and chat further - off to meet a friend and take her to her first opera - Madam Butterfly at ENO )
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« Last Edit: 17:36:23, 08-02-2008 by Ruth Elleson »
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Oft hat ein Seufzer, deiner Harf' entflossen, Ein süßer, heiliger Akkord von dir Den Himmel beßrer Zeiten mir erschlossen, Du holde Kunst, ich danke dir dafür!
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Tony Watson
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« Reply #41 on: 19:09:35, 08-02-2008 » |
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As if to make up for the lack of ten-sop love duets elsewhere, Utopia Ltd has two: "Oh admirable art" in act one and "Words of love too loudly spoken" in act two, two of the best in the whole canon in my opinion. At the beginning of that act, Gilbert makes fun of tenors who, though supposedly helpless with emotion, maintain a rock-solid singing technique.
As for finales, D'Oyly Carte took the extraordinary decision to remove the women's chorus from the end of the act one finale of Princess Ida, because they thought it unladylike for them to be singing about war. Their voices appear on the 1960s DC recording but not on the 1950s one.
Gilbert was a complicated man, capable of being very kind and very cruel. It's true he didn't like tenors but I think it was middle-aged and elderly ladies rather than altos as such who were the object of his satire.
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MabelJane
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« Reply #42 on: 21:12:56, 08-02-2008 » |
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A In Pirates, Mabel and Frederic have a full blown Gran Scena and Duetto with dramatic opening (Stay, Frederic, stay) slow section (Ah leave me not to pine alone - more Stainer than Verdi admittedly) and cabaletta (O here is love and here is truth) all in under five minutes. It is the most obvious send up of ottocento convention I can think of in the Savoy operas.
I loved singing Ah leave me not to pine alone and desolate - the only bit of my singing on the recording which doesn't make me cringe when I listen to it! (It was an er "unofficial" recording made by hiding a cassette recorder in the orchestra pit - not the best sound balance as you can imagine! I am drowned out by the flute in Poor wand'ring one!) To make up for the possible sentimentality, Iolanthe is the only work that I can think of with TWO love duets, and the Act 2 one is far more cynical: "If wer'e weak enough to tarry, ere we marry, you and I, With a more attractive maiden, jewel laden, you may fly, so I think we will not tarry if we marry you and I."
IIRC this was sung live on In Tune yesterday.
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Merely corroborative detail, intended to give artistic verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative.
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #43 on: 21:31:01, 08-02-2008 » |
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I am sure Luiz is a tenor role. It may be lowish, but I have always heard it sung by a tenor...
Yes, Viking Book of Opera gives him as a tenor. And, yes, I was overlooking Utopia Ltd (my least favourite.)
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« Last Edit: 21:37:34, 08-02-2008 by Don Basilio »
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven. A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #44 on: 22:00:33, 08-02-2008 » |
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Not half as great as his aversion to contraltos. The solo roles are all appalling old bags (albeit with some - but not many - lovely songs) and the choral alto lines are deadly dull. Fortunately the soubrette mezzo roles are mostly quite interesting. (Can't stay and chat further - off to meet a friend and take her to her first opera - Madam Butterfly at ENO ) Gilbert certainly wrote his contraltos some unattractive characters, but he could be chivalrous about actual contraltos. Here he is about Rosina Brandram who created all the roles from Lady Blanche onwards: "Rosina of the glorious voice that rolled out as full-bodied burgundy rolls down; Rosina whose dismal doom it was to represent undesirable old ladies of sixty-five but, who, with all the resources of the perruquier and the make-up box, could never succeed in looking more than an attractive eight-and-twenty (it was her only failure)." At least Sullivan always had a contralto. So many opera composers don't even bother. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosina_BrandramI always found the contralto roles the most compelling when I got to know the works from record as a kid. That says something about me.
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« Last Edit: 22:06:10, 08-02-2008 by Don Basilio »
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven. A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
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