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Poll
Question: Which is your favourite Sullivan opera?
The Sorcerer
HMS Pinafore
The Pirates of Penzance
Patience
Iolanthe
Princess Ida
The Mikado
Ruddigore
The Yeomen of the Guard
The Gondoliers
Utopia Ltd
The Grand Duke
Ivanhoe
Another not listed

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Author Topic: Ruddigore and the rest  (Read 3829 times)
Don Basilio
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Era solo un mio sospetto


« Reply #60 on: 21:47:59, 09-02-2008 »

Gilbert died pulling Ruby Preece out of the swimming pool at Grim's Dyke, his Middlesex, Norman Shaw designed home.

She subsequently  changed her name to Patricia and married Stanley Spencer as his second wife.  Stanley's third marriage was back to Wife Number 1, Hilda, IIRC.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Tony Watson
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« Reply #61 on: 21:55:19, 09-02-2008 »

The story about Gilbert's dying from rescuing a woman from his pool is well known, although I never knew she was a lesbian.

But Gilbert's sexuality is a case for speculation. He enjoyed the company of young women but was it similar to the way that Lewis Carroll befriended girls? It meant that there was never any danger of the relationship becoming serious. (See the biography by Jane Steadman for this. He wouldn't let a woman be in the same house once when he had to change his trousers.) His marriage was reputed to be loveless; it was certainly childless. And he liked to see men in military uniforms.
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #62 on: 22:04:58, 09-02-2008 »

O gosh, Tony, I'll have to go away and think of that one very hard seriously.  It might throw a whole new light...

I had my doubts about Sullivan at one point, but this beautiful American divorcee with whom he spent all his time lots of his time would seem to upset that theory.

I have been very good and not mentioned the word "camp" in relation to G and S once.  I will continue my self denying ordinance.

And yes, Tony, Patricia Preece was a Sapphiste, as dear Dr Grew might say.  http://www.tate.org.uk/britain/exhibitions/spencer/room3.htm
« Last Edit: 15:14:37, 10-02-2008 by Don Basilio » Logged

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #63 on: 22:12:40, 09-02-2008 »

And he liked to see men in military uniforms.

"When I first put this uniform on, I said as I looked in the glass..."
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Andy D
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« Reply #64 on: 22:36:45, 09-02-2008 »

I am the very model of a modern Major-General,
I've information vegetable, animal, and mineral,
I know the kings of England, and I quote the fights historical,
From Marathon to Waterloo, in order categorical;
I'm very well acquainted too with matters mathematical,
I understand equations, both the simple and quadratical,
About binomial theorem I'm teeming with a lot o' news---
With many cheerful facts about the square of the hypotenuse.

I'm very good at integral and differential calculus,
I know the scientific names of beings animalculous;
In short, in matters vegetable, animal, and mineral,
I am the very model of a modern Major-General.

Love the rhyme in lines 7&8 Grin
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Don Basilio
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Era solo un mio sospetto


« Reply #65 on: 15:03:34, 10-02-2008 »

I am grateful to french frank on TOP in June 2006 for confirming the identity of Ruby and Patricia Preese :

http://www.freepress.org/columns/display/2/2003/772
« Last Edit: 15:13:32, 10-02-2008 by Don Basilio » Logged

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Don Basilio
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Gender: Male
Posts: 2682


Era solo un mio sospetto


« Reply #66 on: 15:42:58, 10-02-2008 »

Andy has quoted one of the best known and brilliant pieces of Gilbert's verses.

It is one of the series of entrance songs that Gilbert wrote for the characters all played by George Grossmith in which they reveal themselves as charlatans.

(The exceptions I can think of are the Lord Chancellor, Jack Point and Robin Oakapple.)

The insane brilliance of the versification of the Major General's song (quoted by Andy) makes listeners not notice the charlatanism: the point is that he knows nothing about modern gunnery and warfare than "a novice in a nunnery" but nonetheless he can call himself the very model...  (The issue of class is lurking here.)

He is in the same line of self-revealing frauds from the Learned Judge in Trial by Jury ("many a burglar I've restored to his friends and his relations") to the Duke of Plaza Toro in The Gondoliers ("He lead his regiment from behind, he found it less exciting.")

Each of these have a different character: Ko Ko is a cheeky chappy, Bunthorne an pretentious closet case, Sir Joseph is a pompous parvenu snob, and the Major General is a sweet old buffer - his Act 2 song "Sighly softly to the river" is very touching and has been called Schubertian.  (I can see what that means, but perhaps some Schubert lover might like to comment.)

Which leads to the interesting subject of Gilbert as a satirist, and that raises some interesting issues.
« Last Edit: 16:18:09, 10-02-2008 by Don Basilio » Logged

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #67 on: 18:34:21, 10-02-2008 »

in which they reveal themselves as charlatans.

(The exceptions I can think of are the Lord Chancellor, Jack Point and Robin Oakapple.)

Agreed, although I am not sure the Lord Chancellor emerges with his dignity enhanced from

All very agreeable girls, and none
Is over the age of twenty-one!  (ehem!)
Which is exasperating, for
I'm SUCH a susceptible Chancellor!


I'm not sure about the Major-General being so very sweet?   His sympathy-garnering fib that "I am an orphan boy!" (unaware of the Pirates past record with orphans) hardly paints him in the best of lights - especially when his chicanery is exposed.  The social satire counterpoises the Major-General (who lacks, as he tells us, any knowledge of anything remotely useful to society) against the Pirate King, who continues to practice Piracy despite it being neither popular nor profitable.
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Don Basilio
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Era solo un mio sospetto


« Reply #68 on: 20:47:43, 10-02-2008 »

Thanks for that, reiner.

Away to the fleeting world go you
Where pirates all are well to do
But I'll be true to the song I sing
And live and die a Pirate King
O...


In fact I have just realised that appearing one thing and being another is the clue to the Grossmith roles up to Gondoliers.

Jack Point's Act 2 solo A private buffoon is the opposite position: he is forced to appear one thing (a cheerful clown) when he knows he is desperate to amuse a selfish and arrogant employer.

Robin Oakapple has to appear a Bad Baronet when he just wants to be a simple village youth.

The Lord Chancellor certainly sings about fancying his young wards while trying to maintain his dignity, but he is probably the one who does not fit the bill:

Professional licence if carried too far
Your chance of promotion will certainly mar
And I fancy the rule might apply to the Bar
Says I to myself says I.


This honesty may be why he alone among the Grossmith roles (excepting Point) is near to tragedy in his one line Iolanthe, thou livest.

J W Wells produces exactly what he promises, but his patter song is still shameless self-promoting advertising.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Tony Watson
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« Reply #69 on: 20:53:30, 10-02-2008 »

It is one of the series of entrance songs that Gilbert wrote for the characters all played by George Grossmith in which they reveal themselves as charlatans.

(The exceptions I can think of are the Lord Chancellor, Jack Point and Robin Oakapple.)

You could add John Wellington Wells to that list. Robin Oakapple is not what he seems but that's revealed in the dialogue.

The second verse of Sighing Softly was usually cut, which I always thought a pity. I saw one production of Pirates in which the Maj Gen, instead of saying "sat a gee" in his act one song, sang "rode a horse". It wasn't funny. Poking fun at fun seldom works, I think.

When you think of it the Pirate King is the most straight-dealing one of them all. As he says, "I don't think much of our profession, but, compared with respectability, it is comparatively honest." It's the sort of remark Oscar Wilde might have made.

(I wrote this before I read DB's reply above - oops.)
« Last Edit: 20:56:39, 10-02-2008 by Tony Watson » Logged
Don Basilio
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« Reply #70 on: 21:09:12, 10-02-2008 »

I think Tony and I agree about the Sorcerer - you get what's on the tin, but Wells is still a salesman.  (And his patter number is brilliant - if it wasn't overshadowed by the later songs - not that all the Grossmith roles involve patter.)

Am I right that Grossmith did not appear in Utopia Limited?  And he was the Grand Duke Rudolf himself?  If so, my neat description does not include those two late comparative failures.  Everyone in The Grand Duke has major identity problems, but what do you expect when over half the cast are luvvies?
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Reiner Torheit
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Posts: 3391



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« Reply #71 on: 21:54:36, 10-02-2008 »

"I don't think much of our profession, but, compared with respectability, it is comparatively honest." It's the sort of remark Oscar Wilde might have made.

Or possibly Bertholt Brecht? >:->   The final rub in PIRATES  - "Yield, yield, in Queen Victoria's name!"  is purely Brechtian in its absurdity and insincerity Smiley

I have to admit I am never too bothered by "Iolanthe, thou livest?".  The producer has to jump through hoops to underscore the idea that Iolanthe is the Lord Chancellor's former wife, who was sent to live in a duckpond for inexplicable (and utterly unmemorable) reasons.   That one really is in the form of a lozenge Wink

I think I've asked before for ideas why the "Love Potion" motif from TRISTAN & ISOLDE turns up in Phyllis's Act One ballad?  It might get a cackle of recognition or even of incongruity,  but it seems uncharacteristic of Sullivan to get such a cheap laugh?  There's no potion, nor even a comparable situation?

[I once did an IOLANTHE in which the Phyllis danced over the Fairy Bridge during this number, and her feet went crashing through it - this got a much better laugh than the Wagnerian citation, but the soprano involved was most indignant when I suggested we keep it in, and was even found muttering that I'd planned the whole thing and sabotaged her bridge.]
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Tony Watson
Guest
« Reply #72 on: 21:57:27, 10-02-2008 »

Grossmith left after Yeomen, so he didn't even appear in The Gondoliers. But your theory about identity in the comic baritone roles is interesting, DB. There are one or two other examples in the other characters, though not many. Nanki Poo pretends to be a minstrel and Strephon doesn't want Phyllis to know he is half a fairy. Rackstraw and the Captain don't know they are supposed to be each other! Some people think Jack Point was Gilbert himself, though they may just be thinking of the Private Buffoon song.

Though death is threatened a number of times throughout the operas, it only happens twice (unless we count the "legal" deaths in The Grand Duke) - JP (which was an after thought) and JW Wells. His matter-of-fact death weakens the end of The Sorcerer for me.
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #73 on: 10:51:58, 11-02-2008 »

Clear inspiration for My name is John Wellington Wells is Dulcamara's Udite, udite, o rustici in L'elisir d'amore.

Both are strangers coming into a closed community with an outrageous sales pitch and are involved in love potions.  But Dulcamara is total charlatan, whose elisir is only a bottle of Bordeaux (Italians presumably thinking it is all filthy foreign muck is use for - if it was Valpolicella you would want to drink it.)  Wells does not address the rustici, and his love potion works.  He already has a eager client in the ghastly priggish Alexis.

I agree the ending is weak -neither funny nor dramatic.  Shame really, because Act 1 has some fun numbers.  (I do like the Rector's ballad.)

Whereas Sullivan sets the sales patter as just that, patter, Donizetti's setting ends up with a lovely swinging waltz tune.  I like L'elisir.  It has a gentleness, warmth, and humanity that you don't get from Gilbert.

I once played the duet Io son ricco, tu sei bella from L'elisir to my mother, and after the first line she looks up in astonishment and says "It's Gilbert and Sullivan!"
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Ruth Elleson
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« Reply #74 on: 11:18:49, 11-02-2008 »

I reckon The Sorcerer is one of the richest seams of operatic parody in all G&S.

Besides the clear reference to "Udite, udite, o rustici" there's, "Sprites of earth and air" which sends up the Wolf's Glen scene from Freischütz, and the overtly parodic "Tea-Cup Brindisi" in the Act 1 finale.  In Act 2 it settles firmly into Traviata territory, especially here:

Quote
ALEXIS  (furiously)    False one, begone--I spurn thee,
                       To thy new lover turn thee!
                       Thy perfidy all men shall know,
ALINE.  (wildly)       I could not help it!
ALEXIS  (calling off)        Come one, come all!
DR. D.                 We could not help it!
ALEXIS  (calling off)        Obey my call!
ALINE  (wildly)        I could not help it!
ALEXIS  (calling off)        Come hither, run!
DR. D.                 We could not help it!
ALEXIS  (calling off)        Come, every one!

  Enter all the characters except Lady Sangazure and Mr. Wells

                             CHORUS

            Oh, what is the matter, and what is the clatter?
                  He's glowering at her, and threatens a blow!
            Oh, why does he batter the girl he did flatter?
                  And why does the latter recoil from him so?

                       RECITATIVE--ALEXIS

                  Prepare for sad surprises--
                  My love Aline despises!
                  No thought of sorrow shames her--
                  Another lover claims her!
            Be his, false girl, for better or for worse--
            But, ere you leave me, may a lover's curse--

That's just for starters!

And I always feel "Ah love, true love" in the Act 1 finale has something of a Brahms slow waltz about it.
« Last Edit: 11:20:36, 11-02-2008 by Ruth Elleson » Logged

Oft hat ein Seufzer, deiner Harf' entflossen,
Ein süßer, heiliger Akkord von dir
Den Himmel beßrer Zeiten mir erschlossen,
Du holde Kunst, ich danke dir dafür!
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