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Poll
Question: Which is your favourite Sullivan opera?
The Sorcerer
HMS Pinafore
The Pirates of Penzance
Patience
Iolanthe
Princess Ida
The Mikado
Ruddigore
The Yeomen of the Guard
The Gondoliers
Utopia Ltd
The Grand Duke
Ivanhoe
Another not listed

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Author Topic: Ruddigore and the rest  (Read 3829 times)
Ruth Elleson
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« Reply #75 on: 11:19:19, 11-02-2008 »

By the way, The Sorcerer is a prime example of "is it really a happy ending?"  Alexis is at least as bad as Colonel Fairfax.  He instigates all the confusion, then puts terrible pressure on Aline to go along with his ideas, and blames her when it all goes wrong!  And yet when they end up together, we're supposed to think that's somehow a good thing...
« Last Edit: 14:54:57, 11-02-2008 by Ruth Elleson » Logged

Oft hat ein Seufzer, deiner Harf' entflossen,
Ein süßer, heiliger Akkord von dir
Den Himmel beßrer Zeiten mir erschlossen,
Du holde Kunst, ich danke dir dafür!
Don Basilio
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Era solo un mio sospetto


« Reply #76 on: 15:53:55, 11-02-2008 »

And it is J W Wells who has to pay the price, not Alexis.  The only cheeky Cockney tradesman in an Olde Worlde Trollopian village of gentry and deferential peasants, he has to pay the price, when all he did was provide the service specified.

I await the radical Marxist production bringing out the class warfare.

reiner -

Quote
Iolanthe is the Lord Chancellor's former wife, who was sent to live in a duckpond for inexplicable (and utterly unmemorable) reasons.

Supernatural female condemned to a lake for marrying a mortal man?  Remind you of any Czech opera c1901?
« Last Edit: 15:58:40, 11-02-2008 by Don Basilio » Logged

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Ruth Elleson
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Posts: 1204


« Reply #77 on: 16:04:38, 11-02-2008 »

Though at least that was a logical progression for that particular supernatural female, having originated from the lake in the first place.  Unlike Iolanthe Wink
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Oft hat ein Seufzer, deiner Harf' entflossen,
Ein süßer, heiliger Akkord von dir
Den Himmel beßrer Zeiten mir erschlossen,
Du holde Kunst, ich danke dir dafür!
Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #78 on: 16:12:28, 11-02-2008 »

I await the radical Marxist production bringing out the class warfare.

reiner -


Hmm, what a strange coincidence of ideas...  Wink   If there's a G&S opera which would make a good "totalitarian state against the individual" production, it's surely YEOMEN Wink

Do you mean RUSALKA here, or have I missed something?  Surely she's a mermaid  (perhaps "the merri-maid and her man"?) who symbolically lops off her own tail to give herself a chance of love with a mortal?   In fact it turns out she's nothing more than an exotic one-night-stand to him,  after which he sets up home with a Princess...   well, what was she thinking... that love could conquer not only class and race, but also species?   Shocked   She does eventually return to her pond, a broken creature, neither human nor mermaid.

I presume Sullivan had some watery denizens of the Rhine in mind as his Iolanthe parody, though?  (the similarly-named opera by Tchaikovsky has no plot connections with the G&S work at all - it's purely a coincidence of names).

Czech literature and story-telling has something of an obsession with cross-species issues - presumably as an analogy for other things.  THE INSECT PLAY is probably the most famous,  but the same authors produced a rather more disturbing book (this time in the genre of the science-fiction novel) called WAR WITH THE NEWTS. It's an allegory of the slave-trade, in fact.
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Don Basilio
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Era solo un mio sospetto


« Reply #79 on: 16:18:22, 11-02-2008 »

Rusalka - hole in one, and the similarity is just fortuitous.

The libretto with my CDs says "Rusalka climbs down from the willow and stumbles towards Jezibaba": nothing about fish tails.
« Last Edit: 16:21:53, 11-02-2008 by Don Basilio » Logged

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
perfect wagnerite
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Gender: Male
Posts: 1568



« Reply #80 on: 16:30:08, 11-02-2008 »

I've been following this thread with growing fascination, as someone who has avoided G and S for many years, decades even - distant memories of playing second horn in a school concert medley of G and S numbers have clearly left me musically scarred. Undecided

So, having resolved to remedy what with every post looks like an increasingly huge gap in my musical knowledge, where should I start?  Which works? Which recordings (intuitively, one feels that if there are Mackerras performances - here as in so much other repertory - that is probably the place to start).

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At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
Don Basilio
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Era solo un mio sospetto


« Reply #81 on: 16:45:09, 11-02-2008 »

I'm sure Tony will give you all the gen you need.  In fact if you follow some of his links you will be inundated with recording suggestions.

Gilbert did write to a formula, although of a complex nature, but I feel Sullivan managed to get a different musical character for each work.

At the moment I have a lot of time for Iolanthe: the music seems richer and more complex.  Those Who Know (in Moscow and elsewhere) reckon there are meant to be Wagnerian parallels in the music.  The finale is one of the most complex with  the Fairy Queen's vocal line towering over the entire cast.

The brilliant contrast between female chorus (fairies) and male chorus (House of Lords) is modelled on Patience, the previous work, with female chorus (love sick maidens, all of county family) and male chorus (heavy dragoons).

Patience also includes the parody of Oscar Wilde in the person of the poet Bunthorne.  In order to make Patience a success in the USA, where Wilde was unknown, Richard Doyley Carte paid for Wilde's first lecture trip to the States (I have nothing to declare except my genius.)

Gilbert shows no understanding of the character of Wilde's work, and indeed is philistine mocking of the arty, but I do not find his character of Bunthorne homophobic, although he is clearly not straight.  Sullivan set Bunthorne's song with a wonderful cheeky delicacy, if that's the word I want.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Reiner Torheit
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Gender: Male
Posts: 3391



WWW
« Reply #82 on: 17:01:40, 11-02-2008 »

Patience also includes the parody of Oscar Wilde in the person of the poet Bunthorne.  In order to make Patience a success in the USA, where Wilde was unknown, Richard Doyley Carte paid for Wilde's first lecture trip to the States (I have nothing to declare except my genius.)

Am I alone?  I am!  Then I own...

... long, long ago, when ENO last staged PATIENCE, I organised one of those "ENO Study Days", in conjunction with the Univ of London Dept of Extramural Studies.  The assembled experts (and not I - I was only involved in setting it up) concluded that it wasn't Wilde who was in Gilbert's crosshairs in Patience - but Swinburne.   I don't say this is "right", but it's what the panel of historians and experts concluded.

Since Swinburne is largely forgotten these days,  I can quite conceive how the show might target Wilde instead, however.

If I were trying to lure a fan of "serious" opera into the world of G&S, I would start with YEOMEN... for my money, it has the best score, even if the storyline is atypically sombre. 

[Quite by coincidence, as this discussion has unfolded, I've been invited to do COX & BOX for the Moscow Philharmonia, as part of a festival of one-act operas.]
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Don Basilio
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 2682


Era solo un mio sospetto


« Reply #83 on: 17:06:28, 11-02-2008 »

[Quite by coincidence, as this discussion has unfolded, I've been invited to do COX & BOX for the Moscow Philharmonia, as part of a festival of one-act operas.]

Congratulations!!

I was reading Ellman's biog of Wilde last year, and Carte certainly did fund Wilde's tour of the States.  The knee breeches and the blue and white pottery were certainly from Wilde.

When I was a kid I read somewhere that Bunthorne is Wilde and Grosvernor Swinburne.  But it doesn't really matter, matter, matter, matter...
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Ruth Elleson
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Gender: Female
Posts: 1204


« Reply #84 on: 17:10:31, 11-02-2008 »

... long, long ago, when ENO last staged PATIENCE...

Was this the production in which I gather a certain Jane Eaglen made her professional debut - as Lady Ella?
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Oft hat ein Seufzer, deiner Harf' entflossen,
Ein süßer, heiliger Akkord von dir
Den Himmel beßrer Zeiten mir erschlossen,
Du holde Kunst, ich danke dir dafür!
Tony Watson
Guest
« Reply #85 on: 19:21:27, 11-02-2008 »

I've been following this thread with growing fascination, as someone who has avoided G and S for many years, decades even - distant memories of playing second horn in a school concert medley of G and S numbers have clearly left me musically scarred. Undecided

So, having resolved to remedy what with every post looks like an increasingly huge gap in my musical knowledge, where should I start?  Which works? Which recordings (intuitively, one feels that if there are Mackerras performances - here as in so much other repertory - that is probably the place to start).

Second horn parts are rather dull in G&S and the first horn doesn't get many solos. The horns tend to hold on to notes while the other instruments do interesting things, as I mentioned above. Overall it's very effective though - Sullivan certainly knew how to handle the orchestra.

An introduction to Gilbert and Sullivan? I don’t know what this is like but it might be worth a try:

http://www.hmv.co.uk/hmvweb/displayProductDetails.do?ctx=283;3;-1;-1&sku=354444

For an overall view of recordings, as I’ve mentioned above, this is the best site:

http://www.cris.com/~oakapple/gasdisc/

It says it’s not been updated since 2005 but it’s still comprehensive.

G&S recordings tend to fall into the following camps: old D’Oyly Carte, new D’Oyly Carte, Sargent and the so-called Glyndebourne recordings, Mackerras, and miscellaneous. Naturally, they all have their strengths and weaknesses, but I would take the plunge and go for the classic D’Oyly Carte set. This handsome boxed set will give you everything from Trial by Jury to The Grand Duke, with some fill-up items thrown in.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sullivan-Gilbert-Opera-Box/dp/B00008LJEO/ref=pd_bbs_14?ie=UTF8&s=gateway&qid=1202756134&sr=8-14

I find the Sargent recordings a little dull on the whole and they show their age, but they are available in a boxed set too (not all the operas were recorded):

http://www.hmv.co.uk/hmvweb/displayProductDetails.do?ctx=283;3;-1;-1&sku=354444

The new D’Oyly Carte recordings generally contain a return to the original orchestration and material that was cut, so they are well worth investigating, especially this version of Yeomen:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sullivan-Yeomen-Guard-Sir-Arthur/dp/B000025HXE/ref=sr_1_37?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1202757085&sr=8-37

As for the Mackerras recordings (five of them) I must admit I’ve only heard The Mikado. It’s fine except for liberties taken with Brightly Dawns Our Wedding Day, which I can’t bear to listen to. They seem to have been well received though and the five are available separately and in a boxed set.

As for miscellaneous, the New Sadlers Wells Ruddigore is a must.

I agree with Reiner that Yeomen would be a good place to start (it was the first one I saw, aged 13, and I was hooked). Try the new D'Oyly Carte version I've mentioned above if you don't fancy splashing out on boxed sets. The Marriner version, starring Bryn Terfel, Thomas Allen et al is also worth listening to, though I think it's second best.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sullivan-Yeomen-Guard-Sir-Arthur/dp/B00000HY8M
« Last Edit: 19:27:53, 11-02-2008 by Tony Watson » Logged
Tony Watson
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« Reply #86 on: 19:37:20, 11-02-2008 »

Gilbert shows no understanding of the character of Wilde's work, and indeed is philistine mocking of the arty, but I do not find his character of Bunthorne homophobic, although he is clearly not straight.  Sullivan set Bunthorne's song with a wonderful cheeky delicacy, if that's the word I want.

Is Bunthorne straight or not? I've never been quite sure what to make of some of the characters in Patience but I suppose they have to be seen in the context of the times. After Wilde's trial, he was persona non grata in those repressed and hypocritical times and people stopped performing his works and selling his books. So I find it interesting that Patience was revived in 1900, just five years later.
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perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #87 on: 21:03:12, 11-02-2008 »

Many thanks for all these suggestions - I feel a visit to Amazon coming on ....  Grin
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At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
Reiner Torheit
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Gender: Male
Posts: 3391



WWW
« Reply #88 on: 23:17:33, 11-02-2008 »

... long, long ago, when ENO last staged PATIENCE...

Was this the production in which I gather a certain Jane Eaglen made her professional debut - as Lady Ella?

'twas indeed her house debut, but not - strangely - her professional debut.  Back in those bad old days one had to get an Equity Card any way one could - and this usually meant a spell in provincial "rep".  Jane's first professional engagement was as one of the Skid Row Sisters in "Little Shop Of Horrors". She was snapped up by the Coli thereafter. However, the first gig in which she had a chance to show her real form was similarly not at the Coli...  it was an Abbey Opera concert performance at St John's Smith Sq of WALKURE Act I, with Grahame Matheson-Bruce and John Connell providing the male roles.  Tony Shelley conducted.

Is Bunthorne straight or not? I've never been quite sure what to make of some of the characters in Patience but I suppose they have to be seen in the context of the times.

I think Bunthorne - as written by Gilbert - is straight. Such matters couldn't even be spoken of in private at the time, let alone be satirised on the public stage.  His entire foppish gamut is, as he tells us quite clearly, "affectation, born of a morbid love of admiration", and when "he is alone" he throws it all off with great repugnance.   Of course I am not saying that you can't camp it up outrageously, and in fact that's usually what happens...  but I don't think it's what Gilbert had in mind.  I think it's very unfortunate when it's done as a pseudo-Larry-Grayson act...  not funny to my mind at all.
« Last Edit: 23:33:24, 11-02-2008 by Reiner Torheit » Logged

"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Don Basilio
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Posts: 2682


Era solo un mio sospetto


« Reply #89 on: 12:36:35, 12-02-2008 »

I think Bunthorne - as written by Gilbert - is straight. Such matters couldn't even be spoken of in private at the time, let alone be satirised on the public stage. 

Let me put the opposite case.  Bunthorne's supposed passion for a dairy maid, Patience, (which she, sensible girl, finds frightening) is a front to keep the love sick maidens (all of county family) at a distance and make him more fascinating.

When he reveals himself in soliloquy he does not mention love.  "My medievalism's affectation, born of a morbid love of admiration."  He is certainly narcissistic, and the passion for Patience can be seen as another affectation.

But in Bunthorne's wonderful following solo (which I suspect Gilbert wrote as a patter song, but with which Sullivan did something much more interesting) he concludes:

"Everyone will say
As you walk your flowery way
If that he's content with a vegetable love that would certainly not suit me,
Why what a most particularly pure young man that pure young man must be."

He is not interested in women, and he is not interested in men either.

And at the end when the entire cast is matched off in couples except for him, Bunthorne "has to be contented with a tulip and lily".

Victorian audiences (and possibly Gilbert himself) may have thought of him as mainly effeminate, and he shows no interest in any male characters, but he is certainly not straight in the conventional sense of the word.

I shudder to think how it could be played...
« Last Edit: 12:39:20, 12-02-2008 by Don Basilio » Logged

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
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