Don Basilio
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« Reply #105 on: 10:44:07, 13-02-2008 » |
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I've heard the lines: "when everybody's somebody, then no-one's anybody" used in support of privileges. So we should be glad that most of us are nobodies, in order that a few can enjoy being somebody? Was Gilbert being ironic?
I get the impression Gilbert's pessimism lead him to the sort of conservatism that reckons there's no point in changing much because things will always be unfair. The satire on equality in Gondoliers would be the prime evidence here - Queen Victoria may have enjoyed it, but the dear Queen was not noted for her analytical brilliance. In those pre-welfare state days, there were dramatic inequalities in society in matter of access to hygiene, health care, housing, education and the vote (surely there was not even universal male suffrage, let alone female). It was not a matter of everyone being a king; it was a matter of some people having access to clean water, a bed and remotely adequate diet. And Gilbert was quite happy to provide the box office with what it wanted, and Sullivan to pretty it up, between going off to Monte Carlo and having a nice time with his chum the Prince of Wales. I'll put my case For later... (MabelJane - I like Patience, too. Thanks for posting that.)
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« Last Edit: 11:38:56, 13-02-2008 by Don Basilio »
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven. A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #106 on: 11:11:13, 13-02-2008 » |
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At one extraordinary point in Pinafore Gilbert describes the material inequalities of late Victorian life in some detail:
On the one hand, papa's luxurious home... Rich oriental rugs, luxurious sofa pillows, And everything that isn't old, from Gillow's. And on the other, a dark and dingy room, In some back street with stuffy children crying, Where organs yell, and clacking housewives fume, And clothes are hanging out all day a-drying. With one cracked looking-glass to see your face in, And dinner served up in a pudding basin!
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven. A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #107 on: 11:53:19, 13-02-2008 » |
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It does occur to me that G & S appears to appeal more to the politically conservative, (with exceptions - you did say you read The Guardian, didn't you Tony?)
I believe Peter Lilley got great kudos at a Conservative Party Conference by adapting Ko Ko's Little list number to include benefit fraudsters and single mothers (but not I suspect tax evaders and arms traders.) Shudder.
But you can't condemn an opera for its admirers and how they have used it.
I am thinking of Die Meistersinger.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven. A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #108 on: 14:40:20, 13-02-2008 » |
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In those pre-welfare state days, there were dramatic inequalities in society in matter of access to hygiene, health care, housing, education and the vote (surely there was not even universal male suffrage, let alone female).
Surely Gilbert's most biting attack on social inequality is in Strephon's song (cut from the production, presumably because of the nature of the material in it) in IOLANTHE? I put it back when I produced Iolanthe many long years ago. Oddly enough it picks up "hygiene, health care, housing and education" as its topics! There's an open, festering anger in this that I don't find elsewhere in his work... Sullivan's setting certainly didn't shrink from the text.. the last line rises to a held top note on Fagin's name. Fold your flapping wings, Soaring legislature. Stoop to little things, Stoop to human nature. Never need to roam members patriotic. Let's begin at home, Crime is no exotic. Bitter is your bane Terrible your trials Dingy Drury Lane Soapless Seven Dials. Take a tipsy lout Gathered from the gutter, Hustle him about, Strap him to a shutter. What am I but he, Washed at hours stated. Fed on filagree, Clothed and educated He's a mark of scorn I might be another If I had been born Of a tipsy mother. Take a wretched thief, Through the city sneaking. Pocket handkerchief Ever, ever seeking. What is he but I Robbed of all my chances Picking pockets by force of circumstances I might be as bad, As unlucky, rather, If I'd only had, Fagin for a father.
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House" - Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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time_is_now
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« Reply #109 on: 16:26:18, 13-02-2008 » |
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That's rather wonderful, Reiner.
"What am I but he, Washed at hours stated?"
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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Ruth Elleson
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« Reply #110 on: 16:44:48, 13-02-2008 » |
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And it's another reference to Seven Dials as a pit of poverty (other, that is, than the one later in the same opera in "Spurn not the nobly born"). As it happens, I was just walking round that area the other day and musing on how it no longer deserves Gilbert's snooty references, whereas the bit of London where I live - which also earns a condescending Gilbertian reference in an earlier opera - is still yet to become a bower, and my neighbouring area yet to become an Arcadian vale...
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Oft hat ein Seufzer, deiner Harf' entflossen, Ein süßer, heiliger Akkord von dir Den Himmel beßrer Zeiten mir erschlossen, Du holde Kunst, ich danke dir dafür!
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Tony Watson
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« Reply #111 on: 21:20:13, 13-02-2008 » |
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Thanks for quoting those lines, Reiner. There's nothing quite like them elsewhere in G&S and I'm glad you reisntated them. The tune Sullivan supplied is rather haunting too - 3/4 in minor key. Sullivan was doubtless a Conservative who mixed easily with the royal family and other upper reaches of society, despite his lowly origins in Lambeth. Although he objected to some of Gilbert's devices, especially the mockery of older women, he was quite happy to set political texts like the above. I played Strephon myself once (the year after that Ruddigore) and I would have loved to perform that song.
And, Ruth, I don't think Gilbert is being snooty about Seven Dials; I think he feels they deserve better. I love the song "Spurn not the nobly born" and its attack on inverted snobbery:
Hearts just as pure and fair May beat in Belgrave Square As in the lowly air Of Seven Dials.
(Have just got back having driven from Shrewsbury to Oakham, Rutland, and back today. The traffic around Leicester is horrendous. I have to go out to the pub now. And I mean have to.)
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« Last Edit: 14:32:37, 16-02-2008 by Tony Watson »
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #112 on: 22:05:42, 13-02-2008 » |
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Seven Dials figures in Disraeli's Sybyl, so it had a reputation.
18 months ago I read David Cannadine's Decline and Fall of the English Aristocracy. I devoured it for the Mitfordesque gossip, but I can believe Ian Pace would applaud its academic thoroughness and social conclusions.
In it Cannandine spends some time analyzing the duet of the Duke and Duchess in The Gondoliers, and reckons it exactly describes how some aristocrats at the time carried on with the disappearance of their political power and wealth:
Duke: Foundation stone laying / I find very paying. / It adds a large sum to the makings. At charity dinners / the best of speech spinners / I get ten percent of the takings.
Duchess: I write letters blatant / on medicines patent / and use any other you mustn't. And vow my complexion / derives its perfection / from somebody's soap, which it doesn't.
Here is precise social satire, although musically it is uninteresting - one of Sullivan's jog trots where he knew the words were all important.
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« Last Edit: 12:35:00, 16-02-2008 by Don Basilio »
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven. A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #113 on: 22:22:22, 13-02-2008 » |
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PS Tony - hope you are finding restoration in the local Temple of Bacchus.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven. A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
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MabelJane
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« Reply #114 on: 20:28:29, 15-02-2008 » |
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Duke: Foundation stone laying / I find very paying. / It adds a large sum to the takings. At charity dinners / the best of speech spinners / I get ten percent of the takings.
Duchess: I write letters blatant / on medicines patent / and use any other you mustn't. And vow my complexion / derives its perfection / from somebody's soap, which it doesn't.
Here is precise social satire, although musically it is uninteresting - one of Sullivan's jog trots where he knew the words were all important.
I'm not familiar with this duet, but these lines are marvellous. Anyone new to this thread or to the world of G&S operettas may like to visit this website: http://math.boisestate.edu/gas/index.htmlwhere you can read all the lyrics and lots more - this is from their intro: "Welcome to the Gilbert and Sullivan Archive, which is devoted to the operas and other works of W. S. Gilbert and Arthur Sullivan, and to other light operas of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. The Archive, which was established in September 1993, includes a variety of G&S related items, including clip art, librettos, plot summaries, pictures of the original G&S stars, song scores, midi and mpeg audio files, and newsletter articles."
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Merely corroborative detail, intended to give artistic verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative.
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #115 on: 10:17:21, 16-02-2008 » |
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To be honest, I have checked the dialogue from time to time on the Boise site, but it says something about me and G and S that most quotes I have done by heart, with the odd checkup from the printed page. Selected libretti on http://www.karadar.com/Operas/sullivan.htmlas well as many other (untranslated) libretti by others.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven. A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
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Tony Watson
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« Reply #116 on: 14:19:03, 16-02-2008 » |
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To answer your two questions, Don B, yes I did worship at the shrine of Bacchus that night (although it hasn't taken me this long to recover) and I do read the Guardian, although nothing should necessarily be inferred about my politics from that fact. But although I suspect that G&S appeals more to Daily Telegraph readers (I read The Sunday Telegraph) anyone who wants to speculate about the average Savoyard should remember that G&S continues to be very popular in the USA.
Getting back to the Strephon song, it seems that Gilbert's belief that nurture is far more important than nature in determining a person's character is something that runs through much of his work. His last work, The Hooligan, is a serious play about a man awaiting execution in a prison cell who reflects on how his upbringing contributed to his fate. He makes fun of the fact that birth alone shapes character when Rackstraw turns out to be the rightful captain in Pinafore.
On a less serious note, I had always thought that Gilbert had blundered in Pirates when the chorus of women decide to paddle in the sea, remembering that act one takes place on February 28th. But with the sunny month we've been having so far, perhaps global warming isn't a new thing.
(He did get it wrong, though, when he said that Frederic would come of age in 1940, as he forgot that 1900 would not be a leap year. Another oddity is that when Queen Victoria died, he changed the words from "Queen Victoria's name" to "Good King Edward's name" towards the end, without updated the details of Frederic's birth.)
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« Last Edit: 14:32:14, 16-02-2008 by Tony Watson »
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Ruth Elleson
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« Reply #117 on: 15:52:06, 16-02-2008 » |
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(He did get it wrong, though, when he said that Frederic would come of age in 1940, as he forgot that 1900 would not be a leap year. Is that wrong? Surely it just means that the opera is set in 1873 (Frederic having been born in 1852) rather than 1877 (Frederic having been born in 1856). Though I suppose the fact that the opera premiered in 1879 means Gilbert probably did intend it to have been the more recent of the two.
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Oft hat ein Seufzer, deiner Harf' entflossen, Ein süßer, heiliger Akkord von dir Den Himmel beßrer Zeiten mir erschlossen, Du holde Kunst, ich danke dir dafür!
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Tony Watson
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« Reply #118 on: 21:37:03, 16-02-2008 » |
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But the thing is, if the action is supposed to take place in 1873, then the Major General would not be able to "whistle all the airs from that infernal nonsense Pinafore", as that show did not premiere until 1878.
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MabelJane
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« Reply #119 on: 22:52:18, 16-02-2008 » |
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To be honest, I have checked the dialogue from time to time on the Boise site, but it says something about me and G and S that most quotes I have done by heart, with the odd checkup from the printed page.
I wish I had such an excellent memory, DB! But the thing is, if the action is supposed to take place in 1873, then the Major General would not be able to "whistle all the airs from that infernal nonsense Pinafore", as that show did not premiere until 1878.
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Merely corroborative detail, intended to give artistic verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative.
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