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Poll
Question: Which is your favourite Sullivan opera?
The Sorcerer
HMS Pinafore
The Pirates of Penzance
Patience
Iolanthe
Princess Ida
The Mikado
Ruddigore
The Yeomen of the Guard
The Gondoliers
Utopia Ltd
The Grand Duke
Ivanhoe
Another not listed

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Author Topic: Ruddigore and the rest  (Read 3829 times)
Ruth Elleson
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« Reply #120 on: 00:41:38, 17-02-2008 »

But the thing is, if the action is supposed to take place in 1873, then the Major General would not be able to "whistle all the airs from that infernal nonsense Pinafore", as that show did not premiere until 1878.
The same goes for if it's supposed to take place in 1877 Wink
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Oft hat ein Seufzer, deiner Harf' entflossen,
Ein süßer, heiliger Akkord von dir
Den Himmel beßrer Zeiten mir erschlossen,
Du holde Kunst, ich danke dir dafür!
Don Basilio
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Era solo un mio sospetto


« Reply #121 on: 18:19:21, 17-02-2008 »

Let me try to suggest why the Savoy Operas are a Good Thing, the Case For.

None of them has a plot derived or adapted from any works by a previous writer.  Gilbert's fascination with paradox, his topsy-turveydom, not only played with social or political issues, but with literary conventions.  To take a blatant example, in his two earliest successes the female chorus are respectively the sisters, cousins and aunts and the daughters of George Grossmith. 

Gilbert sets up a unique dramatic set up, love it or loath it, and Sullivan responds with charm, wit.

Gilbert subverts the conventions of romantic love which are a basis of romantic operas, so, unconventionally ,tenor/soprano duets are relatively rare.  There is hardly any sentimentality in the texts, which means when Sullivan writes beautiful music, it does not seem out of place in a comic work.  I hear the soft note is slightly funny in context rather than syrupy.  One of the most lovely songs Sullivan wrote for soprano, (with Mozartian wind writing?) has as its cue the words (quote from memory) "I often wonder in my artless Japanese way why it is I am so much more attractive than everyone else.  Can this be vanity?  No, Nature glories in her beauty.  I am a child of Nature, and I take after my mother.  The sun whose rays..."

Gilbert wrote for a large team of seven regulars, but he never wrote stereotypes.  There may be no psychological insight in the way these puppets act, but they are often strongly characterised, at least in their solos.  (See my comments above about the Grossmith parts.)

It is a mistake to judge the works just by the Hits from Gilbert and Sullivan.  There is a surreal dramatic sense to the works, which is often conveyed through prolonged dramatic action set to music, notably the Act 1 Finales, but Act 2 of Pirates, much of Act 1 of Iolanthe, and the whole opening scene of The Gondoliers are continuous music.  This is a delight to rediscover, provided of course you are not put off by the elements I reluctantly indicated earlier.
« Last Edit: 21:12:35, 17-02-2008 by Don Basilio » Logged

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Tony Watson
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« Reply #122 on: 21:56:52, 17-02-2008 »

I played first clarinet (not second trombone) in a production of The Mikado once and The Sun Whose Rays... was one of my favourites for the clarinet line, even when it was just the held E during the middle of each verse. (The bit of Bach in the Mikado's song was fun too.) To the extended musical scenes, you could add the one in the first act of Utopia Ltd, although that is mostly just introducing characters. The duet from that sequence, Although of Native Maids the Cream, was performed in Birmingham Cathedral on the 150th anniversary of Sullivan's birth. An unusual choice, even if it is one of the best songs from the show.

The act one finales are amongst the gems of the canon, though. Often there would be an irritating break halfway through during the LP era but CDs have done much to eliminate that.

It is interesting to try to analyze what makes G&S work. One reason, I think, is because Gilbert and Sullivan were often pulling in different directions. Each was a little disappointed with the other. Gilbert thought the music was too complicated; he just wanted simple ditties that would not draw attention away from his words. (When that happened with collaborations with lesser composers, the works were not successful.) Sullivan wanted more realistic situations to complement his music. (But Gilbert had a way of getting the best out of him. More normal situations would have led to more normal music, perhaps.)

One of the worst things amateur productions tend to do, especially in recent years, is to send up the genre. If it's not worth doing straight then it's not worth doing at all. Gilbert's nonsense has to be played seriously. Sullivan took the words seriously and that's one of the reasons for their success.

And talking of nonsense, I suppose Pirates defies all rational explanation. What man would have about 20 daughters and how would the peers play truant from the House of Lords for about 20 years?
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #123 on: 22:13:32, 17-02-2008 »

And talking of nonsense, I suppose Pirates defies all rational explanation. What man would have about 20 daughters and how would the peers play truant from the House of Lords for about 20 years?

Aren't they his Wards, though, rather than his daughters?  As usual, just when I want to check in my Vocal Score it's at the other end of Europe Sad   I think he's their "father" in a legal, rather than biological sense?   I always believed this was a kind of send-up of "carrot-crunching Cornwall" - he's the only "gentleman" in the district who might meet the requirements for taking such wards under his protective wing?

Nothing would surprise me about peers, including playing truant.  I don't believe any minimum quota of attendance in His Lordship's House is mandatory for them - even now Wink
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Tony Watson
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« Reply #124 on: 22:39:50, 17-02-2008 »

No, they're his daughters all right. "And take my daughters, all of whom are beauties!" I assume it's a Gilbertian way of solving the problem of explaining the presence of a large number of females, in order to get a women's chorus. I suppose that's why gypsies are popular in opera.
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #125 on: 23:24:02, 17-02-2008 »

No, they're his daughters all right. "And take my daughters, all of whom are beauties!" I assume it's a Gilbertian way of solving the problem of explaining the presence of a large number of females, in order to get a women's chorus. I suppose that's why gypsies are popular in opera.

Aha!   Smiley

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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Don Basilio
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Era solo un mio sospetto


« Reply #126 on: 09:15:51, 18-02-2008 »

Gilbert's nonsense has to be played seriously. Sullivan took the words seriously and that's one of the reasons for their success.

I've never seen a picture of Gilbert smiling or laughing.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Reiner Torheit
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Posts: 3391



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« Reply #127 on: 10:46:59, 18-02-2008 »

Gilbert's nonsense has to be played seriously. Sullivan took the words seriously and that's one of the reasons for their success.

I've never seen a picture of Gilbert smiling or laughing.

And not only Gilbert's. All comedy (except for slapstick) has to be played "in earnest" - the humour arises from the situation, and not from any kind of mugging or gagging from the performers.  The Commedia dell'Arte players knew this rule of old,  and observed it scrupulously.  Although Gilbert didn't borrow Commedia plots, he realised the value of the "stock characters",  and employed them to good purpose. Nanki-Poo is a modified version of Pierrot, and most of Grossmith's roles are an expansion of Pantalone (unsatisfied virility, a grumpy nature, a miserly attitude arising from straitened circumstances, hints of a disreputable past, etc).  Almost all the sopranos are Columbina in some way or other Smiley
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Ruth Elleson
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« Reply #128 on: 10:57:25, 19-02-2008 »

It was thanks to this thread that I found myself at my piano late yesterday evening, running through "The Yeomen of the Guard" and parts of "Ruddigore" and "The Sorcerer".  What fun.

Don B, you have expressed your affection for the Act 1 finales; well, I'm here this morning to express my affection for another staple G&S device... the double chorus.

If anybody here doesn't know what I'm talking about, these are the big ensembles where the chorus is split in two (usually ladies v. men) and one group gets the first subject and the other a contrasting second subject.  Then - usually after a couple of solos by way of punctuation, the two subjects are recapitulated simultaneously.

When the foeman bares his steel; In a doleful train; Welcome, gentry; Tower warders, under orders; Walls and fences scaling; Sir Joseph's barge is seen etc.

However I tend to be more fond of those numbers which have the character of a double chorus but don't quite fit the formula: Go away, madam, I should say, madam; Night has spread her pall once more and so on.

And while on the subject of common G&S devices, the other thing for which I have a particular soft spot are the plaintive tenor love-songs which appear in several of the act finales: Spurn not the nobly born; Your maiden hearts, ah, do not steel; Whom thou hast chain'd must wear his chain and so forth.  I love the way they bring a moment of calm and sentimental beauty in the midst of all the plot twists that are invariably going on at this point in the opera.
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Oft hat ein Seufzer, deiner Harf' entflossen,
Ein süßer, heiliger Akkord von dir
Den Himmel beßrer Zeiten mir erschlossen,
Du holde Kunst, ich danke dir dafür!
Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #129 on: 20:21:12, 19-02-2008 »

Well, I was sure I wasn't going potty...   the girls in Pirates are Wards!

MABEL:
Hold, Monsters!
Ere your pirate caravanserai proceeds against our wills to wed us all,
Just bear in mind that we are all Wards in Chancery and father is a Major General


Smiley

Now, on the topic of Gilbert not using pre-existing stories, this is true, BUT he does spoof pre-existing stories.  Who's going to be the first to tell us which other opera has:
  • two rival "crews"
  • a "hero" who's washed-up on a beach
  • a hero who is cursed to live for a very long time
  • a hero who needs the pure love of a girl to redeem him from his piratical seafaring wanderings?

And which opera ends with the revelation that the tenor and baritone were brothers mixed-up by the midwife?
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Tony Watson
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« Reply #130 on: 21:50:24, 19-02-2008 »

They are his wards, for some reason, but they are also his daughters. The libretto and vocal score mention a chorus of General Stanley's daughters (and no other female chorus). Samuel says that he and the other pirates intend to marry his daughters. His daughters always call him Papa. Stanley says he objects to having pirates as sons-in-law and they say they object to having a major general as a father-in-law. Frederic refers to General Stanley as the father of his Mabel.

Although the chancellor in Iolanthe has wards, he never calls them his daughters. He talks of the problems of marrying his own ward and getting his own permission, but he never talks about marrying one of his daughters! That would be worse than marrying one's deceased wife's sister.
« Last Edit: 21:54:23, 19-02-2008 by Tony Watson » Logged
Tony Watson
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« Reply #131 on: 22:00:07, 19-02-2008 »

I like the double choruses too, especially when it's a slow tune put together with a fast one. There is even one in his opera Ivanhoe. In the original overture to Ruddigore, the double chorus Welcome Gentry is used, the only time that happens in an overture I think. But this surely spoils the surprise for later on, which is one of the chief attractions of the device.
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #132 on: 13:32:49, 20-02-2008 »

I may be wrong, but...

Surely a parent can make his biological daughters wards of chancery?  And its all a spoof, so no need to find a realistic explanation.  Certainly in the previous work, Pinafore,the female chorus are all one man's relations.

I had never thought of Pirates in relation to Flying Dutchman, (which I guess is reiner's suggestion.)  Fair enough, although I think Pirates is the most thorough-going parody of Donizetti, early Verdi.

Muddled up babies, Trovatore, Pinafore and Gondoliers, in case anyone doesn't know.

The double choruses are great fun, but in Mikardo there is a trio with three tunes combined (I am so proud.)
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Tony Watson
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« Reply #133 on: 17:35:44, 20-02-2008 »

Surely a parent can make his biological daughters wards of chancery?

I think Pirates is the most thorough-going parody of Donizetti, early Verdi.

Muddled up babies

A parent can indeed make his biological children wards of chancery, although it is unusual. It's all to do with safeguarding inheritance rights.

The music in Pirates is regarded by many as coming closest to grand opera. There is the famous story of how the musicians in America wanted extra pay for the premiere of Pirates over there because they thought the music was a cut above the standard music hall fare. But that was largely because Sullivan had been built up as a very important composer before he came to conduct them.

And muddled up babies? Not in the sense of the baby in Utopia Ltd, I presume:

Awful silence, no reply,
Puzzled baby wonders why.


As for double choruses, I think Sullivan claimed to have invented the idea. The first example is in Pinafore, although there is much the same thing sung by two pairs of singers in The Zoo (1875) which he wrote with "Bolton Rowe".
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #134 on: 19:00:07, 20-02-2008 »

The music in Pirates is regarded by many as coming closest to grand opera.

Maybe so, but I think that while PIRATES is an effective pastiche of grand opera, YEOMEN is bidding for serious inclusion in the genre on its own merits.   For an individual number that's the funniest pastiche of grand opera, though, "The Ghost's High Noon" from RUDDI(Y)GORE has to take the biscuit for me Wink
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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