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Poll
Question: Which is your favourite Sullivan opera?
The Sorcerer
HMS Pinafore
The Pirates of Penzance
Patience
Iolanthe
Princess Ida
The Mikado
Ruddigore
The Yeomen of the Guard
The Gondoliers
Utopia Ltd
The Grand Duke
Ivanhoe
Another not listed

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Author Topic: Ruddigore and the rest  (Read 3829 times)
Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #90 on: 13:16:32, 12-02-2008 »


But in Bunthorne's wonderful following solo (which I suspect Gilbert wrote as a patter song, but with which Sullivan did something much more interesting) he concludes:

"Everyone will say
As you walk your flowery way
If that he's content with a vegetable love that would certainly not suit me,
Why what a most particularly pure young man that pure young man must be."

He is not interested in women, and he is not interested in men either.

But surely that entire song consists of Bunthorne sharing with the audience a list of the tricks and ruses - including a feigned love for garden vegetables - by means of which the public can be fooled into believing in the sincerity of his aesthetic guise?  For he is, as he tells at the very beginning of it, "an aesthetic sham!".   He's having a good old laugh at the gullibility of the general public - from which he's currently making a nice living whilst enjoying the attentions of "twenty lovesick maidens".
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Don Basilio
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Era solo un mio sospetto


« Reply #91 on: 13:31:52, 12-02-2008 »

OK, fair enough, reiner.

He still ends up with only a tulip or lily.

It is a fairly common phenomenon for gay men to both attract and enjoy the admiration of crowds of women.

I think we can settle for the term "ambiguous".

I like your term "having a laugh".  There is something cheeky about the music there, in contrast to his high-minded act in front of his public.  He could still actually enjoy, and has deliberately chosen, his particular form of affectation.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Tony Watson
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« Reply #92 on: 13:41:57, 12-02-2008 »

I shudder to think how it could be played...

From the original production:

Three fine specimens of manhood...



...and a delicate flower

« Last Edit: 14:34:16, 12-02-2008 by Tony Watson » Logged
Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #93 on: 13:57:58, 12-02-2008 »


I like your term "having a laugh".  There is something cheeky about the music there

Oh, I certainly agree Smiley There's something rather "Christopher Robin" about it - "now, how to amuse them today?" Wink He's enjoying twisting them around his fingers, on his own whim.  I am not sure that ending up with a tulip or lily particularly infuriates Bunthorne - in his own terms it's a victory, because he hasn't surrendered on his principles,  and ended-up as a "foot-in-the-grave young man", as his rival has.
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Don Basilio
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Era solo un mio sospetto


« Reply #94 on: 14:10:45, 12-02-2008 »

I am not sure that ending up with a tulip or lily particularly infuriates Bunthorne

Exactly - on my reading, he never wanted a woman in the first place.

(Tony - your fine specimens of manhood are not visible on my machine.  It was the prospect of "Larry Grayson" characterisations of Bunthorne that made my nervous - mind you, I can't remember ever seeing the work on stage, and Devises Amateur Operatic Society could get the part completely wrong.)

I will go and have a cold shower, and return to this thread in a healthier frame of mind.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Tony Watson
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« Reply #95 on: 14:28:35, 12-02-2008 »

The pictures appeared all right on two computers I tried it on, but I've tried another source for the first one, DB, which isn't quite as good as the first.

I agree about the music being cheeky in parts. I was trying to find a quotation from George Bernard Shaw, in which he thought the music of Patience was very churchy. But I usually find his views on music eccentric. He thought that Utopia Ltd was their best effort - both plot and music.
« Last Edit: 14:34:40, 12-02-2008 by Tony Watson » Logged
Don Basilio
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Era solo un mio sospetto


« Reply #96 on: 14:37:46, 12-02-2008 »

(Dripping wet from shower) The picture of the dragoons as aesthetes now appears clearly.

The "churchy" bit in Patience must be the sextet of the Finale I hear the soft note of the echoing voice.

Like MabelJane's favourite O leave me not to pine in Pirates , out of context it may sound dreary Victorian saccharine.  But in context it is quite unsentimental and has considerable period charm.

( Back to bracing cold water.)
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Don Basilio
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Gender: Male
Posts: 2682


Era solo un mio sospetto


« Reply #97 on: 14:40:19, 12-02-2008 »

ELLA
The love of maidens is, to him, as interesting as the taxes!

SAPHIR
Would that it were! He pays his taxes.

ANGELA
And cherishes the receipts!

SAPHIR
Happy receipts!
(All sigh heavily)
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Ruth Elleson
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Posts: 1204


« Reply #98 on: 14:52:02, 12-02-2008 »

The "churchy" bit in Patience must be the sextet of the Finale I hear the soft note of the echoing voice.

There's a hymn-tune quality to the two-part harmony of the closing cadence of "Prithee, pretty maiden", too.

Personally I find "I hear the soft note" more akin to something like "The Long Day Closes".
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Oft hat ein Seufzer, deiner Harf' entflossen,
Ein süßer, heiliger Akkord von dir
Den Himmel beßrer Zeiten mir erschlossen,
Du holde Kunst, ich danke dir dafür!
Tony Watson
Guest
« Reply #99 on: 15:05:38, 12-02-2008 »

If it is churchy, as an antidote, when Bunthorne ends his recitative with "Born of a morbid love of admiration", the last two notes are A-D sharp, a diabolus in musica.
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Ruth Elleson
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« Reply #100 on: 15:07:14, 12-02-2008 »

...as is the maidens' "Then - we love you!" addressed to Grosvenor towards the end of the Act 1 finale Wink

(The interval's the same, I mean, not the notes.  It's B-F-B, I think...)
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Oft hat ein Seufzer, deiner Harf' entflossen,
Ein süßer, heiliger Akkord von dir
Den Himmel beßrer Zeiten mir erschlossen,
Du holde Kunst, ich danke dir dafür!
Don Basilio
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Gender: Male
Posts: 2682


Era solo un mio sospetto


« Reply #101 on: 21:52:18, 12-02-2008 »

I think its time just to remember the Case Against, as it were.

We have mentioned the misogyny.

Rather more serious is the nature of Gilbert's satire.  There are plenty of examples of genuine social satire (notably in Utopia Ltd) and reiner will probably come up with more examples.

But what is frequently the case is that the satire leaves the object of the satire in place, and indeed confirms it.  For example, the ringing patriotism of He is an Englishman in Pinafore and When  Britain really ruled the waves in Iolanthe.  This was at the height of the British Empire, a generation or two after the brutal suppression of the Indian Uprising of 1857 (I am reading William Dalrymple's The Last Mughal) and just before the Boer War.  Colonial jingoism was to cause a lot of misery, but here it is just a joke.

Again, in Iolanthe the House of Lords are shown as arrogant and pompous, but I can well imagine Iolanthe being quoted by a supporter of hereditary legislation.  It shows we have a Sense of Humour, doesn't it, so we can keep things as they are.

The overall effect can be Smug.  It is the attitude non-English must find infuriating.  We have a sense of humour, so we can maintain thing as they are.

In fact Gilbert had, I suspect, a deep pessimism and even bitterness, so deep he can only bring himself to point out as many paradoxes as possible .  The sweetness and facility of Sullivan's music and its suitability for those with no great musical talent, only cover up the pessimism, and make the smugness all the worst.

In fact there is far more to the works than that, but it is worth considering why they can be infuriating.
« Last Edit: 22:14:03, 12-02-2008 by Don Basilio » Logged

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Reiner Torheit
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Gender: Male
Posts: 3391



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« Reply #102 on: 23:16:28, 12-02-2008 »


Again, in Iolanthe the House of Lords are shown as arrogant and pompous, but I can well imagine Iolanthe being quoted by a supporter of hereditary legislation.  It shows we have a Sense of Humour, doesn't it, so we can keep things as they are.


The House of Peers, throughout the war,
Did nothing in par-ticu-laar,
And did it veeeeeeeeery well!


I agree with you, Don B - isn't it the case, though, that Gilbert went "as far anyone could who depended on box-office receipts for his living"?   The House Of Lords are mocked quite mercilessly,  and when it's clear that they are beyond any kind of reform, Gilbert's only answer for them is...  to turn them into fairies  Smiley   And presumably they all fly away to bother us no longer Smiley

In fact, Gilbert "has it in" for Whitehall Wallahs of every imaginable type,  from the the J.P, "though you'll say my Law is fudge, but I'll never-never budge!",  through to the Navy Lord "who polished up the handles on the big brass door!",  and "that very partner-ship I ween, was the only "ship" that I ever 'ad seen!".

For all the time that's passed meantime, I am not convinced that the Libel Laws would allow one to get away with very much more even these days?   When "Jerry Springer" can be successfully kept off stages merely by a war of attrition with legal cases that never cease,  theatrical spoofs of the British Establishment have not really come so far since G&S Wink

PS If you are in the mood for some British Empire anti-jingoism and haven't read "The Great Game" or the other Peter Hopkirk books, I recommend them strongly Smiley  The full history of ill-advised British military adventurism in Afghanistan revealed in all its woeful glory Sad
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
MabelJane
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« Reply #103 on: 23:44:22, 12-02-2008 »

Just to say I'm really enjoying reading this thread even if I don't have anything to contribute to the current discussion.  Kiss

I have a soft spot for Patience as this was my first G&S - as a lovesick maiden. I particularly liked Grosvenor's song:

A magnet hung in a hardware shop,
And all around was a loving crop
Of scissors and needles, nails and knives,
Offering love for all their lives;
But for iron the magnet felt no whim,
Though he charmed iron, it charmed not him;
From needles and nails and knives he'd turn,
For he'd set his love on a Silver Churn!

Maidens.

A Silver Churn?

Grosvenor.

A Silver Churn!

His most aesthetic,
Very magnetic
Fancy took this turn —
"If I can wheedle
A knife or a needle,
Why not a Silver Churn?"


and so on.

Tragically, the student who played our Grosvenor was killed a few months afterwards on a road accident. Perhaps this is partly why I remember this song with such affection. It's sad that of the four productions I was in, no-one recorded this one.

Oh I can't resist posting the 2nd verse too - the puns are dreadful!

And Iron and Steel expressed surprise,
The needles opened their well-drilled eyes,
The penknives felt "shut up", no doubt,
The scissors declared themselves "cut out",
The kettles they boiled with rage, 'tis said,
While ev'ry nail went off its head,
And hither and thither began to roam,
Till a hammer came up and drove them home.

Maidens.

It drove them home?

Grosvenor.

It drove them home!

His most aesthetic,
Very magnetic
Fancy took this turn —
"If I can wheedle
A knife or a needle,
Why not a Silver Churn?"

Maidens.

While this magnetic,
Peripatetic
Lover he lived to learn,
By no endeavour
Can magnet ever
Attract a Silver Churn!
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Merely corroborative detail, intended to give artistic verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative.
Tony Watson
Guest
« Reply #104 on: 09:25:21, 13-02-2008 »

The argument that if we can laugh at things then all is well is an interesting one. Remember the television series Yes, Minister? That exposed the Byzantine workings of the civil service but I don't remember anyone ever wanting to reform it.

When Strephon enters in act two, he was originally given a song to sing: Fold Your Flapping Wings. It says that we shouldn't be surprised if some people turn out badly, given their social deprivation. It's almost like something by Dickens. But it was soon cut after much criticism that it was out of place in a comedy. People resented being lectured to by a clown.

I think it's difficult to tell whether Gilbert was a Liberal or a Tory. In the Gondoliers, it's republicanism that's mocked. I've heard the lines: "when everybody's somebody, then no-one's anybody" used in support of privileges. So we should be glad that most of us are nobodies, in order that a few can enjoy being somebody? Was Gilbert being ironic? The Gondoliers was a favourite of Queen Victoria, and she loved the Regular Royal Queen song. At the end of the show, though, I suspect that Marco and Guiseppe are the happiest.
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