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Ruth Elleson
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« Reply #135 on: 20:16:50, 20-02-2008 » |
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As for double choruses, I think Sullivan claimed to have invented the idea. The first example is in Pinafore, although there is much the same thing sung by two pairs of singers in The Zoo (1875) which he wrote with "Bolton Rowe".
Oh, yes - despite having had Eliza's bit of that song going through my head for much of yesterday, I'd forgotten that it was another double-melody song  I love The Zoo. Practically every number and every situation is an operatic parody, and the chorus is a parody in itself. Must get a recording - I haven't heard it since I was in it thirteen years ago! |
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Oft hat ein Seufzer, deiner Harf' entflossen,
Ein süßer, heiliger Akkord von dir
Den Himmel beßrer Zeiten mir erschlossen,
Du holde Kunst, ich danke dir dafür!
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #136 on: 20:36:10, 20-02-2008 » |
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In between Pinafore and The Zoo, comes the duet in The Sorcerer for Sir Marmaduke and Lady Sangazure Welcome joy, adieu to sadness. Admittedly both singers sing both melodies, before singing them at the same time. The fast section is weak, but the opening minuet is deliciously prim.
I think Tony and I had a disagreement over this one in the past: he didn't think it counted as a double number. Not their best, but it shows the same procedure.
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« Last Edit: 20:43:33, 20-02-2008 by Don Basilio »
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
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perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #137 on: 20:41:47, 20-02-2008 » |
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The music in Pirates is regarded by many as coming closest to grand opera.
Maybe so, but I think that while PIRATES is an effective pastiche of grand opera, YEOMEN is bidding for serious inclusion in the genre on its own merits. For an individual number that's the funniest pastiche of grand opera, though, "The Ghost's High Noon" from RUDDI(Y)GORE has to take the biscuit for me  So, following the advice on this thread, I've now got hold of a recording of The Yeomen of the Guard - the old D'Oyly Carte conducted by Sargent, coupled with Trial by Jury - loaded it on to the iPod, and it has been my commuting companion for the last few days - and once I'd got my head round the dramatis personae (not helped by an absence of dialogue, not a mistake I'm going to make in future acquisitions) I'm now beginning to realise what I've been missing all these years. It is in some ways a strange work - there is, IMHO, an edge of cruelty that I also find in apparently comic works like The Bartered Bride - but much of the music is glorious, and, on the basis of a few days' acquaintance, I know exactly what Reiner means - it is the real thing, and not just pastiche or parody. |
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At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #138 on: 20:51:35, 20-02-2008 » |
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Right, I haven't listened to Yeoman for years, and I will definitely do so soon. I never suggested for a moment that the music wasn't up to scratch.
There is more than a touch of cruelty in most of the works. Yeoman and Mikardo both have plots revolving around capital punishment, and there is plenty of cruelty elsewhere (notoriously to women no longer young - although I reckon there are compensations for them.) Iolanthe, Frederic, Robin Oakapple and Arac in Ida are all threatened with death. There is a Grand Inquisitor in Gondoliers, and I suspect most people never associate him with the Spanish Inquisition.
The cruelty gets overlooked partly through the charm of the music and the paradox of the plots (not in Yeoman) and in the old days through familiarity.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
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Tony Watson
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« Reply #139 on: 21:02:58, 20-02-2008 » |
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pw,
Sorry, I didn't realize spoken dialogue was important to you. I personally don't care for it on recordings but the only available Yeomen with it is the Neville Marriner version.
db,
I agree there is the threat of cruel punishment in many of the operas. In Utopia Ltd the king says he is in touch with the Mikado regarding methods of punishment and the Grand Inquisitor says that torments will be used to make Inez speak if necessary. Perhaps people think of it as Tom and Jerry type violence.
We should remember that Gilbert was a man of his time but there is the story of how he was in a bad mood one morning because he thought a man was going to be acquitted of murder but he perked up considerably in the afternoon when he was found guilty and sentenced to be hanged.
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perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #140 on: 21:36:34, 20-02-2008 » |
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pw,
Sorry, I didn't realize spoken dialogue was important to you. I personally don't care for it on recordings but the only available Yeomen with it is the Neville Marriner version.
No problem, Tony - just that I'm new to this and there is a lot of scene setting at the start of Yeomen. If I can get my head round Walsungs, Gibichungs and Valkyries, I'm sure I'll get used to Gilbert's plot! (And there are certainly some musically excellent opera recordings where the dialogue is a problem - Kubelik's Oberon and Bohm's Entfuhrung come strongly to mind). |
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At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #141 on: 00:07:55, 21-02-2008 » |
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I agree there is the threat of cruel punishment in many of the operas. In Utopia Ltd the king says he is in touch with the Mikado regarding methods of punishment and the Grand Inquisitor says that torments will be used to make Inez speak if necessary. Perhaps people think of it as Tom and Jerry type violence.
I think it's also suggested (in the spoken dialogue) that Wilfred (in YEOMEN) is not only a gaoler, but also puts his hand to a bit of torture too? Dame Carruthers mentions the topic openly: "The screw may twist and the rack may turn, and men may bleed and men may burn..." Am I right in thinking that only John Wellington Wells and Jack Point die during the course of the action, however - and both in their final respective scenes? (There's dispute that Point "died", although I think it's generally agreed that he did so on stage... the lack of a stage instruction to this end was to get the tragic ending past the censor). |
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
- Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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Ruth Elleson
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« Reply #142 on: 08:56:49, 21-02-2008 » |
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I can't think of anybody else who dies during a G&S opera.
Wilfred Shadbolt describes himself as "head jailer and assistant tormenter".
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Oft hat ein Seufzer, deiner Harf' entflossen,
Ein süßer, heiliger Akkord von dir
Den Himmel beßrer Zeiten mir erschlossen,
Du holde Kunst, ich danke dir dafür!
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #143 on: 10:18:40, 21-02-2008 » |
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Jack Point loses Elsie to Fairfax and falls unconscious, almost certainly dying.
Phoebe loses Fairfax to Elsie and has to become Mistress Wilfred Shadbolt.
Now that's really tragic.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #144 on: 10:19:34, 21-02-2008 » |
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pw - I'd be interested to hear your response to Trial by Jury sometime.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
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Tony Watson
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« Reply #145 on: 13:10:29, 21-02-2008 » |
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(There's dispute that Point "died", although I think it's generally agreed that he did so on stage... the lack of a stage instruction to this end was to get the tragic ending past the censor).
During the original run George Grossmith, who played Jack Point, stayed on the floor during the curtain calls but acknowledged the applause by shaking his leg. The idea of his dying began with one of the touring companies, with Gilbert's approval. It was then incorporated into the first revival, about 1897, and has been the accepted practice ever since, with different Points dying in different ways. In a couple of earlier messages, it was agreed that Leonard Meryll was a bastard for the way he teases Elsie in the finale, but what about Elsie herself? Agreed, she's already married so she doesn't have a choice but she could be a bit more compassionate towards Jack. |
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Ruth Elleson
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« Reply #146 on: 13:20:27, 21-02-2008 » |
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Well, I don't think there's anything written into the opera to say that Elsie has any responsibility towards Jack other than friendship. He's clearly in love with her, and hopes that one day they will marry - but I don't think that there is ever any indication of whether she does or does not see their partnership the same way.
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Oft hat ein Seufzer, deiner Harf' entflossen,
Ein süßer, heiliger Akkord von dir
Den Himmel beßrer Zeiten mir erschlossen,
Du holde Kunst, ich danke dir dafür!
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #147 on: 13:34:13, 21-02-2008 » |
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In a couple of earlier messages, it was agreed that Leonard Meryll was a bastard for the way he teases Elsie in the finale, but what about Elsie herself? Agreed, she's already married so she doesn't have a choice but she could be a bit more compassionate towards Jack.
This plot-line has been used elsewhere later...  |
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
- Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #148 on: 20:52:47, 24-02-2008 » |
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This thread seems to have reached the end of its shelf life, so may I say a big thank you to Tony for starting it off. And also a big thank you to those members who can imagine can't stand the idea of G'n'S and have refrained from saying anything.
About ten years ago I reached the conclusion that the problem with these works was Gilbert (for reasons I have tried to say above) and it would be fairer to call them "operettas by Sullivan". I objected to the way music shops would classify them under G for Gilbert, but not classify other works under B for Boito, H for von Hofmanstahl, etc.
These discussions have clarified my mind - Gilbert's surreal world view saved Sullivan from pretension and sentimentality, and made the Savoy Operas something special. As Tony said they pull two ways, and something like that explains their resilience.
I would not like to live with them all the time - toffee all the time would be too much, as the Duke in Patience realised. But from time to time they are wonderful, and I look forward to hearing Yeoman again, in the light of reiner's comments, and getting the Ruddigore recording Tony recommends.
Thank you.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
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Tony Watson
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« Reply #149 on: 21:19:39, 24-02-2008 » |
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Thank you, Don B, for your many interesting contributions. And thanks to the others, in particular Reiner and Ruth, and, as Don pointed out, those of you for whom this is not your cup of tea.  |
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« Last Edit: 00:08:04, 25-02-2008 by Tony Watson »
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Poll
