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Poll
Question: Which is your favourite Sullivan opera?
The Sorcerer
HMS Pinafore
The Pirates of Penzance
Patience
Iolanthe
Princess Ida
The Mikado
Ruddigore
The Yeomen of the Guard
The Gondoliers
Utopia Ltd
The Grand Duke
Ivanhoe
Another not listed

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Author Topic: Ruddigore and the rest  (Read 3829 times)
Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #45 on: 11:56:21, 09-02-2008 »

Parsifal

You can tell I'm not a Wagner buff, but in my defence let me say A Kundry is a mezzo and B its a seduction duet OK, but not exactly a love duet.

Although Kundry is often sung by mezzos these days, the role is officially listed as "soprano" in the Vocal Score... and sopranos do quite frequently sing it too, albeit those of the more robust persuasion Smiley
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Tony Watson
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« Reply #46 on: 13:20:34, 09-02-2008 »

At least Sullivan always had a contralto.  So many opera composers don't even bother.

Indeed. There are some lovely low Gs and even the odd F for the contralto in G&S and they do seem to be thinner on the ground in continental operas. I wonder whether it has anything to do with the English choral society tradition, in which Sullivan was steeped? And the altos do have some lovely songs. I particularly like "Silvered is the raven hair".

As for altos having boring chorus parts, I've never looked much at that, although they some interesting moments, as in "Comes a train of little ladies". I've never understood why they're generally called second sopranos in the vocal scores.

But in other operas, I prefer Carmen to be sung by a mezzo rather than a soprano and I don't like it when sopranos duck the lowest notes in Rosina in Barber of Seville. Maria Callas sang that part splendidly and aren't there some people who thought she pushed her voice too far and that she would have done better singing mezzo roles?
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #47 on: 13:53:35, 09-02-2008 »

Not half as great as his aversion to contraltos.  The solo roles are all appalling old bags (albeit with some - but not many - lovely songs) and the choral alto lines are deadly dull. 

O Ruth you are allowing yourself to be oppressed by patriarchy.  They are not "old bags".  They are strong, independent, courageous and resourceful women.  Of course Ko-Ko, Bunthorne, the Lord Chancellor, Sergeant Meryll, Robin Oakapple and W S Gilbert were terrified of them.  These include one (The Fairy Queen in Iolanthe )  who can take on the whole House of Lords, vocally and politically, and turn them all into fairies.  And she is quite unapologetic about fancying a bit of rough and demanding that he marries her.

Weak chorus lines are up to Sullivan, not Gilbert.

As well as the lovely numbers (Hearts do not break, O foolish fay, I'm called Little Buttercup as well as Silvered is the raven hair) they often have those exhilarating dancing duets Gilbert gives them in Act 2: Beauty in the bellow of the blast, So go to him and say to him, Rapture rapture. 

And in particular two of the best (Act 1) Finales have their dramatic climax when the contralto is matched against the entire cast: The Fairy Queen in Iolanthe and Katisha in The Mikardo.  I find these quite magnificently, battily dramatic.

The really embarrassing expression of Gilbert's misogyny is Princess Ida with possibly his least interesting contralto role, but institutional sexism as the basis of the plot.

It was quite a shock to come to real opera and find contraltos (Rosina, Carmen, L'italiana, Cenerentola) could have sex appeal.
« Last Edit: 14:10:12, 09-02-2008 by Don Basilio » Logged

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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #48 on: 14:03:53, 09-02-2008 »

Maria Callas sang that part splendidly and aren't there some people who thought she pushed her voice too far and that she would have done better singing mezzo roles?

We're getting off-topic slightly, but the topic of the mezzo-soprano voice is viewed differently in different countries.  It is, in the end, "exactly what it says on the tin" - a medium soprano voice.  The designation separates it from the "other" sopranos who go "off the end" of "medium"... Violetta, Leonore, Manon, Gilda etc... parts which are still not yet in the "coloratura" department (Olympia, Zerbinetta, Queen Of The Night, Air Traffic Controller etc).

"Do you know the difference between Norma & Adalgisa? A semitone!"  (c) Svetlana Rossiyskaya, mezzo-soprano Smiley  (I have to admit I've never checked this claim).
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Tony Watson
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« Reply #49 on: 14:22:08, 09-02-2008 »

Thinking of Katisha, there are, of course, two productions of The Mikado playing in London at the moment (ENO and Carl Rosa Company). I haven't been fortunate to see either of them but I've read the Guardian reviews. In one of them (I can't remember which!) it says that the sensitive and resourceful side of Katisha is well brought out.
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #50 on: 14:44:38, 09-02-2008 »

The really embarrassing expression of Gilbert's misogyny is Princess Ida with possibly his least interesting contralto role, but institutional sexism as the basis of the plot.

I'm not sure that's the basis of PRINCESS IDA?  Princess Idea satirises the opening of a Women's College at which female students could sit for the examinations of the University of London.  It's based on an actual college - Royal Holloway College, some way outside London on Egham Hill (these days the A30 on its way from Windsor to Staines).  The college's extraordinary architecture was based on the Loire chateau of Chambord, only tripled in extent.  The whole thing was built on the private fortune amassed by Thomas Holloway, a quack-cure magnate who'd got-rich-quick from "Holloway's Little Liver Pills".

I am not only an alumnus of the college (which was compelled to become co-educational from the 1970s onwards), but a member, and subsequently Director of the Student Union Savoy Opera Society.  All Committees of the Savoy Opera Society were mandated to hold-off performing Princess Ida until its 100th Anniversary came due. 

I believe the redoubtable lady satirised in Princess Ida - the first Principal of the College - had incurred the ire of many with some rather injudicious remarks,  and Gilbert joined the queue of people wishing to return the favour.

For anyone passing by,  the College's Picture Gallery has one of the finest collections of late-C19th British oil paintings.  It also saw the appearance in G&S of performers who went on to do reasonably well - Susan Bullock and Felicity Lott.  And, ehem, the first modern performance of Stephen Storace's THE SIEGE OF BELGRADE Smiley
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Don Basilio
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« Reply #51 on: 15:29:54, 09-02-2008 »

Royal Holloway College, some way outside London on Egham Hill

You and Dame Ivy Compton Burnett.

I have never visited but I have often noticed its red brick turrets dominating the Western side of the M25 like Chateau Munster.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #52 on: 16:06:44, 09-02-2008 »

I am not only an alumnus of the college (which was compelled to become co-educational from the 1970s onwards)
I suspect you didn't quite intend the apparent logical implication there, Reiner. Wink

Re your earlier comments about established singers being unwilling to do G&S, incidentally, I notice Maria Ewing is taking on the Fairy Queen!?! Shocked
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #53 on: 19:47:31, 09-02-2008 »

Maria Ewing has many strings to her bow - I'm sure she'll do an excellent IOLANTHE Smiley   The remark I made about G&S blighting careers was actually intended to apply to conductors and producers,  but it's probably equally inapplicable to them too Wink
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Tony Watson
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« Reply #54 on: 19:57:10, 09-02-2008 »

The really embarrassing expression of Gilbert's misogyny is Princess Ida

Some of the men don't come across very well either. According to Gilbert they're just shaved monkeys.
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #55 on: 21:03:18, 09-02-2008 »

Ruth really pointed out one of the classic reasons people object to Gilbert, his treatment of the heavy female roles. 

I am sorry but there really is a very strong case to answer (although I have done my best above.)

A woman is ridiculous if she is no longer physically attractive, but is desperate for a man.

BUT there is nothing ridiculous about a man no longer physically attractive and likes pretty young girls around him, as certainly applied to W S Gilbert himself.  (There is poetic justice in the fact he died rescuing a lesbian from difficulty in a swimming pool.)  The Lord Chancellor, Ko Ko, the Learned Judge and the Duke of Plaza Toro all ogle young women, without appearing more than raffish.

What is surprising, given his susceptibility to pretty young girls, is that none of Gilbert's soprano leads are silly sentimental young things.  Many of them are as tough as nails, as a P G Wodehouse heroine, from that toughest of cookies, the Plaintiff in Trial by Jury onwards.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
time_is_now
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« Reply #56 on: 21:32:23, 09-02-2008 »

There is poetic justice in the fact he died rescuing a lesbian from difficulty in a swimming pool.
Don, that has to be my quote of the month so far! Cheesy
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Don Basilio
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« Reply #57 on: 21:36:20, 09-02-2008 »

True, tinners.  She was Ruby Preece, changed her name to Patricia Preece, studied art, moved with her lover to Cookham, persuaded Stanley Spencer to divorce his adored wife Hilda and marry her.  The Leg of Mutton Double Nude, sometimes on display at Tate Modern or Britain, depicts poor old innocent Stanley's frustration, silly chump.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Don Basilio
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Gender: Male
Posts: 2682


Era solo un mio sospetto


« Reply #58 on: 21:38:01, 09-02-2008 »

The remark I made about G&S blighting careers was actually intended to apply to conductors and producers,  but it's probably equally inapplicable to them too Wink

Charles Mackerras hasn't done too badly by Janacek lovers, despite Pineapple Poll.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
time_is_now
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« Reply #59 on: 21:40:09, 09-02-2008 »

I'm confused, Don: are we talking about W S Gilbert or Stanley Spencer???

Stanley Spencer is a painter I have very odd feelings about. I can't think of any other artist whose work I feel so alienated from at the same time as admiring it intensely.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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