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trained-pianist
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« on: 19:04:48, 10-02-2007 » |
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Hello, everybody.
They call it Tchaikovsky experience, but there is a lot of Stravinsky music. I have to say that before today I only knew his ballet music Petrushka and Firebird and very little of his chamber music.
I have listened so far to Symphony in E flat, violin and piano suite on Pergolesi and I like his music very much. Stravinsky uses much of Tchaikovsky's music.
Does anybody wants to tell if they like Stravinsky's music.
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #1 on: 19:19:34, 10-02-2007 » |
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Thank you Il Grande Inquisitor. I am looking forward to hear Fairy kiss. Today there was divertimento that was based on that ballet. This is why I said Stravinsky was quoting Tchaikovsky. It was very good.
I know Stravinsky has several periods. The early one is very close to Rimsky-Korsakov as I can see.
There was neo - classical period.
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #2 on: 01:02:03, 11-02-2007 » |
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I was drawing a link between Schoenberg and Stravinsky the other day to my 2nd yr students.
Schoenberg drew together the opposing strands of Wagner and Brahms, while Stravinsky drew together the opposing strands of Tchaikovsky and Rimsky.
Stravinsky loved Tchaikovsky's music and once saw the back of PIT's head in the opera house.
IIRC, Strav's dad was a pall bearer at PIT's funeral.
(Also IIRC) Mavra was dedicated to Tchaikovsky as a deliberate two fingers up.
Strav seems to have picked on various composers and done a job on them: Tchaikovsky, Gesualdo, Webern.
Obviously there are more, but those three seem particularly to have obsessed him in his 'neo-Classical' period.
Of course, neo-Classical is a bit of a misnomer.
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'is this all we can do?' anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965) http://www.myspace.com/itensemble |
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #3 on: 09:48:09, 11-02-2007 » |
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Stravinsky could be seen as one of the great musical magpies, t-p, siphoning up ideas from all and sundry, but it's important to point out that despite this his own voice is virtually always clearly to the fore (the very early Symphony in E flat the only really notable exception). The huge development through the three early ballets - Firebird, Petrushka and The Rite - happens in a very short space of time (their premieres being in 1910, 1911 and 1913 respectively), and even when the third of the trio has all but broken the mould of western classical music forever he doesn't come to a halt and continue for the rest of his life in the same vein, but continues to absorb and evolve new styles right up to the end of his life.
I'd suggest that the other hugely important point to make is that even though he takes much from other composers, his credit rating is decidely positive because in turn his influence on succeding musicians is absolutely staggering. Since his own range was so wide, various composers have ended up taking completely different aspects of his output as an impetus for their own music. Varese's Arcana couldn't have existed without The Rite, Poulenc's style is clearly coloured rhythmically and harmonically by the so-called 'neo-classical' period works, Britten was obsessed with the string sonorities in Apollo, which in turn can be heard to be filtered into his string writing: Tippett's language change for King Priam owes a debt to the recent Agon, and his added 'wrong-note' chords and rhythms are a fundmental part of the language of minimalists such as Steve Reich. This isn't even the tip of the iceberg, either, the man has cast an extraordinarily long shadow over an immense range of music for virtually a whole century.
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #4 on: 11:22:54, 11-02-2007 » |
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Thank you Ron Dough. I can see now clearly that Stravinsky had so many ideas that other composers could draw on his music endlessly.
I don't understand the story with Pergolesi. Did Pergolesi draw his music from another composer that I am not familiar with? May be Stravinsky thought that it was Pergolesi.
I can hear distinct voice of Stravinsky in all of his pieces, it is true.
By the way in Tchaikovsky Mozartiana I also heard Tchaikovsky (orchestration in particular was not Mozart's).
Thank you again,
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #5 on: 11:41:02, 11-02-2007 » |
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When Stravinsky originally found the pieces, they were all attributed to Pergolesi, t-p - later scholarship has re-assigned some of them to other composers, Wassenauer being one IIRC.
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SimonSagt!
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« Reply #6 on: 11:44:13, 11-02-2007 » |
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the man has cast an extraordinarily long shadow over an immense range of music for virtually a whole century.
A shadow indeed, Ron. A deathly dark, discordant, soulless shadow, where beauty rarely finds a place from which to flower. But that's just my opinion, of course! bws S-S! |
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The Emperor suspected they were right. But he dared not stop and so on he walked, more proudly than ever. And his courtiers behind him held high the train... that wasn't there at all.
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #7 on: 12:17:43, 11-02-2007 » |
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it's important to point out that despite this his own voice is virtually always clearly to the fore
Yes yes yes Ron! And isn't it so wonderfully freaky how his orchestration, even in the late Variations, is 100% recognisable as Stravinsky? Your examples of the way in which he's influenced others are very good. Thank you for that. A deathly dark, discordant, soulless shadow, where beauty rarely finds a place from which to flower.
Oh Simon! I do feel sorry for you! You really are missing out on some wonderful music. Do you not even like the Firebird or the Rite of Spring? The Bishop of Durham told me that he thought that there was something 'sinister' about the Rite, but I tried to persuade him otherwise and recommended that he listen to Les Noces, as a way to get into the whole Russian folk thing. I'd never describe Stravinsky as you do. Maybe it is that we're all wired up differently, but I do encourage you to try again. Do you know the Mass? I really find it very beautiful. And the Symphony of Psalms... |
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'is this all we can do?' anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965) http://www.myspace.com/itensemble |
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #8 on: 12:26:57, 11-02-2007 » |
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There is something sinister in Rite of Spring. It always scares me. I mean the music is very frightening.
The Firebird has beutiful music and orchestration.
Like in all composer people can find pieces that they like.
Today in piano concerto (I have to check the name) Stravinsky sounded like Berg to me.
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #9 on: 12:29:45, 11-02-2007 » |
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 The piece was called movements for piano and orchestra. With 12 tone technique he lost originality.
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #10 on: 12:46:57, 11-02-2007 » |
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hh!
Long time no speak....I'm glad you appreciated my thumbnails there.There's more of course, masses more: the Bernstein of West Side Story is clearly influenced by Uncle Igor - there's a section in the prologue which owes allegiance to Les Noces, and that same work, forced into a rather four-square Teutonic straitjacket is clearly one of the forebears of Carmina Burana, too: indeed, in the other panels of Trionfi, the debt is clearer still. Walton is certainly an admirer, and early Henze, too. John Barry's score for The Lion in Winter bears the hallmarks of extensive study of The Symphony of Psalms, and S's incursions into the world of Jazz (strange though some of them are) can be heard as influences on the American Jazz-rock scene of the seventies: Chicago and Blood Sweat and Tears brass section harmonies use the added wrong note technique in a very Stravinskian way...on the Joni Mitchell album Don Juan's Reckless Daughter, Jaco Pastorius quotes from the opening of The Rite in the bass-line of Talk to Me....I'm sure I can find much more for you
Ron
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #11 on: 12:49:35, 11-02-2007 » |
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There is something sinister in Rite of Spring. It always scares me. I mean the music is very frightening.
I don't feel it like that. It makes me want to dance (it's actually one of the only pieces that affects me like this!) I remember standing in Castlerigg stone circle, with the sounds of the Rite echoing in my head thinking how perfect a setting it would be on a clear day for it to be danced. With 12 tone technique he lost originality. To my shame, I don't know Movements, but I can't say that I agree with your statement there t-p. All of the late serial pieces that I know are unmistakeably Stravinskian, even though they use 12-tone technique. I've already mentioned the Variations, but I'd add Canticum Sacrum and the Epithalamium (which looks on the page like it should sound like Webern, but there seems to be a silken thread linking it to the earlier Russian folksongs) to that. The Dove Descends is a slightly different matter. Who does that sound like? Not sure, but it's certainly not Schoenberg, Webern or Berg. I really must listen to Movements and give you my thoughts on that! |
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'is this all we can do?' anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965) http://www.myspace.com/itensemble |
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roslynmuse
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« Reply #12 on: 12:52:12, 11-02-2007 » |
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Much of Louis Andriessen (particularly De Staat) is Stravinsky plus 70s rock...
I must confess to a soft spot for certain of LA's scores (De Stijl is a favourite, although I get the impression it's a "love it or loathe it" experience)
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #13 on: 12:58:20, 11-02-2007 » |
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With 12 tone technique he lost originality. [/quote] On the contrary, t-p, I'd suggest that it offered him a new challenge which fired his imagination anew. The final ballet Agon is an absolute masterpiece: as hh says, the orchestrations couldn't be by anybody else, but they 're totally new and original: diaphanous, piquant combinations that nobody else had of trying. roslynmuse Via Andriessen, the influence continues on to Martin Butler, Graham Fitkin and Steve Martland (amongst others). |
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roslynmuse
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« Reply #14 on: 13:02:16, 11-02-2007 » |
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Agreed, Ron, although what I have heard of Fitkin doesn't inspire me to delve much deeper. Butler and Martland are more interesting, I think. Another Andriessen student, John Pickard, has gone off in a completely different direction, composing string quartets of a decidedly Simpsonian cast in recent years.
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